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Londo Prophecy (morella) and the 2nd chance

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  • LateArrival
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post

    Yes, in the outline JMS published in the script books where Sinclair was there for the whole series (plus spin-off), B4 would have been taken to the future after B5 was destroyed in a rekindled Earth/Minbari war.
    In hindsight, since JMS had everything planned out beforehand, perhaps he had a Trap Door ready in case Boxleitner didn't/couldn't return for season 3 and Morden might have been a backup? But since WWE already showed Londo saving Sheridan in The Future, would a Trap Door have been necessary? Even if Morden had survived, blowing up the Shadow Vessels on the island still would have gotten Londo fitted with a Keeper. Could see Londo allowing Morden to live and a grateful Morden returning years later to help, but after WWE that seems unnecessary. Plus Vir wouldn't have been able to wave, and Londo wouldn't want to disappoint Vir.


    ? Perhaps Londo might have saved the life a certain CnC tech last seen in The Gathering?

    Speaking of outlines and script books, was pleased to discover that the awesome B5Books team included the outlines JMS wrote for the TM and LoF trilogies with script book 2.5 (no Psi-Corps outline, alas).

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  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by LateArrival View Post
    Speaking of which... there is the season one prophecy from "Signs and Portents" where B5 is destroyed, and referenced again in "Babylon Squared". JMS had to use one of his many Trap Doors when Michael O'Hare was unable to continue with season two, and this changed the story arc. Am really really rusty, but wasn't B5 supposed to have been destroyed, resulting in their needing to steal B4 as a replacement for B5?
    Yes, in the outline JMS published in the script books where Sinclair was there for the whole series (plus spin-off), B4 would have been taken to the future after B5 was destroyed in a rekindled Earth/Minbari war.

    Leave a comment:


  • Looney
    replied
    I had to stop reading once the books were mentioned because Looney doesn't want to be spoiled. That is not an admonishment. Just letting you know why I didn't add my two cents.

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  • LateArrival
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan View Post
    I keep meaning to come back to this and forgetting. Partly, because I have a vague memory that there's something about Morden not dying in the Technomage trilogy but I've only read that series once and never went back to it. But still, to my mind, being declared dead is a far cry from actually being dead so I still say it's Sheridan. He died - no ambiguity about it. Prophecies are supposed to be clear, at least in retrospect.

    One thing we saw for sure is that JMS has never lied when he claims to have a mind like a 'bucket full of snakes'.


    "You must not kill the one who is already dead"

    Am rusty on the TM books, but could of sworn that Morden was one of the few (or the only one?) who joined the Shadows w/o needing to spend time as a CPU. Anna Sheridan was declared dead along with Morden, although it was explained later that while her consciousness died from her time as a Shadow CPU, her physical body survived. On the flip side, Captain Sheridan's physical body died while his consciousness was Kept Around by Lorien at the beginning of season four. Although it gets Weirder since the Captain Sheridan who is "saved" in the future is actually his pre-death past self from Babylon 4 dropping into his future body.

    The act of NOT killing Captain Sheridan (#2) certainly leads to Londo asking G'Kar to strangle him (#3) so that Captain Sheridan (#2) can successfully escape. It does seem that (#3) must take place in order for (#2) to be successful. And while engaged in (#3) Londo - controlled by his Keeper - manages to "Kill the eye that does not see", so not sure how (#1) turns out.

    But from what I recall of the Legions of Fire trilogy, by the time Londo and his Keeper died (#3), Vir and Company were already in place and moving against the Drakh. With Emperor Mollari (Drakh Puppet) dead, Emperor Vir Cotto would be in a better position to oppose the Drakh and drive them from Centauri Prime. Whether or not Captain Sheridan and Delenn make it off the planet, if Londo still lived under Drakh control, he might have killed Vir and worked to keep the Drakh in power and entrenched on Centauri Prime. At least that's a possible theory, but it draws from the LoF books where (if memory serves) the Drakh flee Centauri Prime once their secret is out and everyone with a grudge against the Drakh now knows where to come looking for payback (See: Earth Alliance/Plague).


    Speaking of which... there is the season one prophecy from "Signs and Portents" where B5 is destroyed, and referenced again in "Babylon Squared". JMS had to use one of his many Trap Doors when Michael O'Hare was unable to continue with season two, and this changed the story arc. Am really really rusty, but wasn't B5 supposed to have been destroyed, resulting in their needing to steal B4 as a replacement for B5?
    Last edited by LateArrival; 06-19-2021, 03:03 AM.

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  • Jan
    replied
    I keep meaning to come back to this and forgetting. Partly, because I have a vague memory that there's something about Morden not dying in the Technomage trilogy but I've only read that series once and never went back to it. But still, to my mind, being declared dead is a far cry from actually being dead so I still say it's Sheridan. He died - no ambiguity about it. Prophecies are supposed to be clear, at least in retrospect.

    One thing we saw for sure is that JMS has never lied when he claims to have a mind like a 'bucket full of snakes'.



    Leave a comment:


  • Looney
    replied
    WOW! An actual plot discussion and only two posts?!

    I'll just add that in my often stated opinion, every episode of Babylon 5 needed a running time that was twice as long. (Basically every episode needed to be a movie.) Then I might have gotten all the exposition I truly crave!....

    (And there is no WAY Refa was part of the prophecy.)

    Leave a comment:


  • moreorless
    replied
    I would tend to agree with you, there is something about "the one who is already dead" phase that just seems a negative description to me that fits Morden much better than Sheridan as well of course as the logic to mention that 2 and 3 become linked. You could argue Morden even before his nuking was "already dead"i, he was listed as dead and indeed you could argue the Shadows changing of him might be considred almost death turning him into a puppet. I think you see with Justin talking to Sherdan at the end about his wife being put in the shadow vessel that really he's not the free thinking pragmatist he pretends to be, he seems regretful but then shifts to anger as the shadow control asserts itself.

    I think we do kind of get a little hint at this plot, Londo is shown to be acting out of anger in killing Morden when he discovers he was behind Adira's death rather than nesserally the greater good BUT we do also have that element involved in the story as is. Killing Morden needs to happen to remove Shadow influence from CP before the Vorlons arrive. I could imagine a longer version of this story when perhaps the waters could be muddied a bit more, where killing Mordon is shown as a more of a questionable act of revenge.

    I have seen some suggest it was actually referring to killing Refa, his beign "already dead" is a bit questionable I spose although Londo has half poisoned him and morally he's prtety much irredeemable. Still though killing him does seem to have negative consequences, without his influence Cartargia seems to shift from puppet to mad emperor with direct control which results in the Shadow vessels being on CP.

    I

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  • Woofdog2
    started a topic Londo Prophecy (morella) and the 2nd chance

    Londo Prophecy (morella) and the 2nd chance

    when Joe clarified in early s4 that the 1st chance was g'kar's eye, and the 2nd chance was sheridan (the third chance being the death of londo scene), I knew there was a logic problem but never thought more about it. the issue was Londo was supposed to be able to take the 3rd chance even if he blew the 2nd chance - but what happened of course was the 2nd chance being correctly attempted immediately necessitated the 3rd chance.

    25 years pass, and a post on reddit about this gets my attention. the issue is as follows -

    1. Dramatically, when you give someone 3 chances, they are going to blow the first 2, and at the very last take the 3rd. this is like one of those 'show the gun on the wall in act 1, use by act 3' things imo.

    2. the first two missed chances have to be pretty obvious, even if only in retrospect, to the audience, and (tv) have to be SHOWN in the show. Gkar's eye certainly is obvious in retrospect.

    3. when the prophecy episode was filmed, the WWE2 episode was filmed a couple of months ~~ later, closing the prophecy as londo faces his ultimate fear. at that point, the PTEN problem was not known publicly and possibly not at all to joe. certainly not to the point he was planning on a truncated show.

    4. before s4 starts filming, he realizes he has no network for any s5 renewal. he chooses to wrap up the major plot elements all in s4, a compression of several episodes. I believe he has said he would have ended the season on 'the face of the enemy?'

    5. he has previously stated Into the fire would have been a two-parter. I think it is reasonable to suggest there would have been net either 50 or 100 extra minutes for the wrap-up of the shadow war (7 or 8 episodes vs 6).

    6. The thinking that was spelled out for me, and that makes sense, is that Morden was intended to be the one who is already dead. given the nuke blast in Z, the setup for some form of re-animated Morden is certainly there. reduced exposition time with the PTEN problem almost certainly required cutting things that were critical to the plot as set up. considering that all of s4 was written knowing the pten problem, it isn't a leap to suggest he simple moved the 'dead' label to sheridan, who might have been gravely wounded and sustained by Lorien vs. 'dead' and morden the walking zombie. r/brasswirebrush spelled this out for me on the b5 reddit forum, and it makes a lot of sense. There would no longer be a need to eliminate Morden, and Londo would quite easily not take any chance to NOT kill him. 2nd chance missed.


    Joe has said at different points he prefers to let 'what if' on some things remain unknown.

    i will add that if the show were 'story by writing committee' that I would believe anything was possible, but this was Joe's story, and a sloppy 2nd/3rd chance resolution as shown isn't how the '3 chances' thing would be planned to work, in my opinion. Under this theory, he simply had to cut things from the shadow war in s4 that he had no way to fix if he was going to finish the show in 1 season, and moved some elements around to let sheridan fill-in as the 2nd chance, with some hand waving and a conveniently passing comet (look, a comet!) to push it through.
    Last edited by Woofdog2; 03-09-2021, 08:38 AM.
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