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3 chances to avoid the darkness, Londo's future

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  • #31
    I can't think that Morden qualifies as the man already dead. He never died. People may have thought he died through lack of knowledge or downright deceipt, but he hadn't died. In the series, Sheridan and Marcus are really the only ones I can think of that "died" but were still available to be killed. Lorien said he can't create life, he can only breath on the embers, so one could argue that Sheridan was only mostly dead, but for everyone else, except perhaps some other First Ones, that's still dead. Marcus was, in a somewhat similar fashion, frozen on the point of death, but he wasn't as dead as Sheridan, and Londo never really had an option concerning him. That, for me, leaves Sheridan.
    "That was the law, as set down by Valen. Three castes: worker, religious, warrior."

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Towelmaster
      You may be forgetting that murder would be a capital crime on Centauri Prime too. So as Morden was behind the murder of Adira, he would be sentenced(probably) to death anyway. Certainly during the time he actually dies. The killing may be out of revenge, but he would have been in deep deep serious trouble anyway. Certainly with Londo as the new Head honcho.

      Come to think of it though, I think that Londo did indeed use two of the three opportunities: he saved G'Kar's life by killing Cartagia, and he submitted to a keeper.
      By the moral compass of B5 though killing someone out of personal revenge would certainly be considered a negative. If you view the chances as three tests of character then I'd say thats more of one than not killing Sheridan who by what we saw in the series didnt do anything willfully malicious towards him(Londo certainly didnt seem to habour any ill feeling when drunk and in control).

      Another reason I lean towards Morden is that the phase is "already dead", Sheridan was dead(from future Londo's point of view anyway) but had been brought back to life at that time. Morden on the other hand could be viewed as a merely a puppet by that stage, in a show about choices a man without them isnt really alive.

      The prophecy was that the 3rd chance would be needed only if Londo didnt take the other two.
      Last edited by moreorless; 09-28-2006, 12:48 PM.
      Who are you?
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      What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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      • #33
        So two of those choices have had to happend before that episode right? So it could not have been the whipping since it hadn't happend yet. His worst fear was giving up his life. He knew it would be his end, so that is the last one to me.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by yohoob
          So two of those choices have had to happend before that episode right? So it could not have been the whipping since it hadn't happend yet. His worst fear was giving up his life. He knew it would be his end, so that is the last one to me.
          By "that episode" I assume you mean the forward flash in War Without End? From that perspective everything but Decontruction of Falling Stars and Sleeping in Light had already happened.
          Who are you?
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          • #35
            I think severed dreams thats when the women tells londo about the three chances. Two of them should have happened already before that episode. She tells Londo that two chances have already gone by. So to me when he gives up his life that is his third and final chance for redemption.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by yohoob
              I think severed dreams thats when the women tells londo about the three chances. Two of them should have happened already before that episode. She tells Londo that two chances have already gone by. So to me when he gives up his life that is his third and final chance for redemption.
              Lady Morella gives Londo a reading in "Point Of No Return". She tells him that he has three chances ahead. She also says that two other chances have already passed. In totality, Londo had five chances, but by the time of "Point Of No Return" two of the five had been passed, three remained.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by yohoob
                I think severed dreams thats when the women tells londo about the three chances. Two of them should have happened already before that episode. She tells Londo that two chances have already gone by. So to me when he gives up his life that is his third and final chance for redemption.
                I took it to mean that two other chances had already gone by and that he had three further chances or else why would she give details of first two of his remaining chances and speak of them in the future tense. I'd guess those two chances he had already wasted were...

                1.Don't have the shadows attack the Narn base and start the war.

                2.Don't have the shadows destroy the last of the Narn fleet allowing the bombing of there homeworld.
                Who are you?
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                What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                • #38
                  Well crap he had five, I guess I need to watch them again. I though there was only three. He sure did have a lot of chances.

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                  • #39
                    Lady Morella gave Londo the prophecy in "Severed Dreams." At that time she tells him he has three chances to redeem himself remaining. He has already missed two others, which she does not describe.

                    Re: Sheridan as "the one who is already dead"

                    Not killing Morden would not have saved Centauri Prime from the wrath of the Drakh. Morden could not have gotten a message to the Drakh in ther interval between the time the Centauri guards killed his associates and his own death, so it isn't like he personally called them in. The Drakh came to Centauri Prime because Londo had blown up the island with the Shadow ships - which he would have done anyway. Morden is not the "one who is already dead."

                    Sheridan is not only the one who really was "already dead", he's the one who has been dead ever since Lorien revived him. He's always had that built-in expiration date, that certainty that he had no more than 20 years left. In 2278, at the time of "War Without End", Sheridan has only about 3 years left.

                    Londo, of course, tries to "not kill" Sheridan - but he fails. (As noted earlier in this thread.) Before Sheridan escapes, his Keeper awakens. The Keeper will rescind his order, Sheridan and Delenn will be killed, the Alliance will not come to help free his people, and then the Drakh will kill Londo. Londo will have failed and would have died knowing he had failed and that the only thing that could have redeemed him, rescuing the Centauri People from the consequences of his own folly, would have passed.

                    This is what is going to happen if he doesn't summon G'Kar from his hiding place and accept the death he had long foreseen, giving in to his greatest fear, the nightmare that has haunted him for most of his adult life.

                    Thus the prophecy is fulfilled. Londo misses all of his other chances and finally takes the last.

                    What about G'Kars eye, you ask?

                    Don't forget the point of the prophecy. There are things Londo can do that will save him "from the fire that awaits you at the end of your journey." Assuming "the fire" is the subjagation of the Centuari People by the Drakh and Londo's own role as puppet, there are many things prior to "Into the Fire" that could prevent this - including Londo's death. As things turned out, the Vorlon Fleet was called away from its mission to destroy Cenaturi Prime. That would have happened even if Londo hadn't destroyed the Shadow Fleet and Mr. Morden. After the Shadow Fleet would then doubtless have received a similar summons to the Corriana system. There would have been no reason for the Drakh to single out the Centauri for revenge.

                    Speaking up in time to save G'Kar's eye could have done many things that would have headed off what happened.

                    Now, how did G'Kar come to lose his eye? Cartagia says he's disturbed by the way G'Kar looks at him. He asks Londo what he should do about it. Londo, preoccupied with his plans to kill Cartagia, doesn't think - he just says, "I'm sure whatever you do will be correct" or words to that effect. And then he leaves. Cartagia finally settles on plucking out one of G'Kar's eyes. If Londo had been a little less self-involved and paid more attention to what was going on around him he might have realized that Cartagia was very likely to do something horrible. He could have tried to cajole Cartagia out of doing anything. He could have stuck around to see what Cartagia would do and then, horrified, intervened. Either way he could have gotten Cartagia good and pissed off.

                    And then Cartagia might have killed Londo. Who would not have been around to destroy the Shadow ships. Or Londo could have killed Cartagia - violently, openly. Would Cartagia's guards have killed Londo? Maybe. Maybe not. Everyone knew Cartagia was a monster. No one dared lift a hand against him. But once the monster is dead, how loyal to his memory would everyone have been? Londo might have led an open revolt and siezed power at that point. This could have led to civil war on Centauri Prime - and made it a less desirable hide out for the Shadows.

                    The point is that any number of things could have flowed from Londo standing up to Cartagia at that moment that could have spared Londo his future fate. Great events often turn on the smallest things. The spark that started WWI was the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was killed because his driver, fleeing an earlier attempt to kill the Archduke, got confused and made a wrong turn. This, by chance, put the car directly in front of one of the conspirators who was also fleeing the scene of the earlier bombing and happened to be crossing that particular street. The man pulled out his gun and fired - the rest, as they say, is history.

                    Regards,

                    Joe
                    Joseph DeMartino
                    Sigh Corps
                    Pat Tallman Division

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
                      Lady Morella gave Londo the prophecy in "Severed Dreams."
                      "Point Of No Return"

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by vacantlook
                        "Point Of No Return"

                        Damn! I knew I should have stopped to look that up.

                        Joe
                        Joseph DeMartino
                        Sigh Corps
                        Pat Tallman Division

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                        • #42
                          Morden was not responable for the Drakh invasion but given his position its quite easy to theorise how keeping him alive could have stopped it in the same way you did with G'Kar's eye. For example as a favoured sevent of the Shadows he likely had a great deal of knowledge of their allies and if kept alive might well have revealed that knowledge allowing Londo to stop the Drakh's invasion. You could view the fact he threatened Londo with revenge as a pointer that he would be best kept alive for info.

                          As I said the main thing that points me to Morden is that like many of the turning points in the series I'd considered Londo's chances at redemption to be moral tests and failing the second(or fourth if you include the two earlier ones) chance just because the keeper is present isnt a moral failure.

                          To divert the topic a bit would everyone agree with my two list of the two previous chances he'd missed by severed dreams? If those and Morden are correct then I think you can see a clear pattern in his five chances, each one is harder than the last....

                          1.Starting the war with the Narn in Coming Of Shadows by ordering the attack on their base was a pretty open choice. It could potentially help his people and himself but he could still have backed out without to much danger.

                          2.Destroying the Narn attack force in The Long Twilight Struggle was under more pressure but given that Londo and Refa's standings were pretty level he could likely have refused to do it and lived.

                          3.Saving G'Kar's eye was IMHO riskier given Cartagia's mental state and the fact he had near total power over Londo.

                          4.Not killing Morden and shipping him off Centuri Prime wouldnt have offered as much physical threat but given what he'd done to Londo was harder still.

                          5.Letting G'Kar kill him in a way he'd be affraid of for decades was obviously the hardest of all.
                          Who are you?
                          What do you want?
                          What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                          • #43
                            Turning to the words of jms himself:

                            Refa was never already dead, so it can't be him. Dead is dead,
                            and the only one who fits that description would be Sheridan.

                            jms

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                            • #44
                              If thats his final word then I guess he must have intended the second chance to be Sheridan although I could still cling to the old "when an artist lets his work go any interpretation is valid" arguement.

                              That link actually has another question I'v never seen a clear answer of, who is the man inbetween?

                              When I first watched the series I took it to mean Justin but now I'd say that Lorien or Sheridan "meeting" himself "inbetween tick and tock" makes more sense.
                              Who are you?
                              What do you want?
                              What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by moreorless
                                That link actually has another question I'v never seen a clear answer of, who is the man inbetween?

                                When I first watched the series I took it to mean Justin but now I'd say that Lorien or Sheridan "meeting" himself "inbetween tick and tock" makes more sense.
                                I've more or less have always thought it was Lorien with Sheridan having met him inbetween tick and tock, as you well point out. In the third scriptbook, jms says that the man inbetween is Sheridan himself.

                                "At the risk of being trite... the Sheridan that he is one day going to become is looking for him, waiting for him on the other side of his decisions.

                                "Quantum physics tells us that time is primarily a matter of perception, that we actually exist simultaneously in the past, present and future. To someone who can step outside of human perception, such as Lorien, or Kosh, who transmits this dream to Sheridan just as he does to G'Kar later in "Dust to Dust," all those Sheridans are equally real at the same time. (Hence Kosh's comment, "You have always been here," and Lorien saying that Sheridan is "caught between seconds," caught in the subjective perception of time.) So what we have here is Sheridan looking at himself on the bridge, from his return from death in "The Summoning," looking at himself looking at himself in "Sleeping in Light."

                                "We all look to the future, trying to see the person we will one day become.

                                "We all look to the past, to the person who was and the decisions made that brought us to where we are today.

                                "For Sheridan, those moments... are this moment, brought together.

                                ""The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us... and our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast terrible in-between."" (pages 52-54)

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