Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The episode where Talia is exposed

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    It never make much sense for Talia to be given a second personality. Psi Corps could simply order her to return to Teeptown, say for a training course or pension planning. Once there they have the authority to scan her.

    Leave a comment:


  • Susitcha
    replied
    Yes,

    I think it is more that the creation of a control is a process done by telepathy amongst other things no doubt. So it makes sense that the password would be telepathic..

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Laurel Takashima was the original "Control" so the idea that Controls would need to be telepaths is not borne out by the facts as we know them.

    Leave a comment:


  • vacantlook
    replied
    Originally posted by Dipper
    I remember from some of JMS' interviews that Control was originally supposed to be Lt.Cmdr Something from The Gathering. But for some reason she didn't stay in the show.
    Lieutenant Commander Laurel Takashima, and yes, she was originally going to have been Control, and it would have been she/Control that shot Garibaldi in the back at the end of season one.

    It's my understanding that with there being a year in real time between the production of "The Gathering" and the first episode of season one -- thanks to some other shows in the PTEN syndication package not being ready to roll into filming when PTEN had initially scheduled to do so, and thus B5 having to sit around waiting for the other shows to catch up, production-wise -- that the options in the actors' contracts had expired, causing them to have to negotiate new contracts with all the actors from B5, and that led to several actors deciding to not return, one of which was the one who played Takashima.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dipper
    replied
    I remember from some of JMS' interviews that Control was originally supposed to be Lt.Cmdr Something from The Gathering. But for some reason she didn't stay in the show.



    Dip

    Leave a comment:


  • SpanishFan
    replied
    I always thought that Control (that is, Talia 2.0) ordered the hit on Talia 1.0:
    a) to get her closer to Ivanova and Garibaldi, and
    b) to protect its cover in front of thirteen itself, and anyone in case the operation was exposed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Real world explanation?

    The whole sleeper personality concept dates back to the original pilot, and then it was kept alive via "Control" without too many speciifcs, for two reasons:

    1) For a Talia storyline down the road (one in which Kosh's datacrystal recording probably would have been used to get her back)

    2) as a trap door for any of several characters/actors if something came up before the Talia storyline. So while there was a lot of foreshadowing with Talia and mirrors and lines about "things that live inside us", until Andrea decided to leave and JMS actually pulled the trigger on the idea, "Control" could have turned out to be someone else. It was planned for Talia (going back to "Midnight" - "I don't feel like a victim") but the option was always there to go another way if the situation changed suddnely and JMS needed a quick exit for someone else. At the time of "A Spider in the Web" JMS didn't know how he was ultimately going to resolve that whole storyline.

    3) JMS may always have conceived of "Control" as being more than one entity with subordinate "controls" responsible for different areas at different times. This was certainly what he suggested later, with the San Diego "Control" being different than the "B5" Control. Since the orders to kill Talia came via a Babcom terminal, it is hard to tell which "Control" they were coming from. Also in compartmented organizations like Bureau 13 it is not unusual for one group of agents to have no idea what another is up to. San Diego Control, eager to protect the Zombie program, may have had no idea that Talia Winters was a deep cover agent for either another branch of Bureau 13 itself or for some other covert ops unit. So it just saw her as another civilian threat.

    Or it may be that they were aware of her but that at this point in the story protecting the Zombie program and derailing the Mars independence movement are simply a higher priority than keeping an eye on the B5 command staff. (Don't forget, at this point the B5 folks are not overtly investigating the death of Santiago, Clark hasn't started any blatantly illegal moves and the crew's loyalty isn't highly suspect. Talia's implanted personality is more of an insurance policy than anything else. She's keeping on eye on a possible future threat, and maybe moving herself into a position where she can influence the command staff. But basically, she's expendable. They can always put another teep with an implanted personality in there and find another way to get close to the right people. The priorities even of her own implanted personality might be such that it would order the death of Talia if leaving her alive would jeopardize the over-all mission of the organization. Most military and paramilitary organizations expect their personnel to die, if there is no other choice, rather than allow a vital mission to fail or the organization to be dangerously compromised. So it isn't impossible that Talia 2.0/Control ordered the hit on "our" Talia.

    Regards,

    Joe

    Leave a comment:


  • SLerman
    replied
    No, you're remembering it correctly. I think the most commonly accepted explanation is that it was a different department/branch/program/etc. than the one that was responsible for Talia's implanted personality. And as we all know, different departments of the same government never step on each other's toes.

    Leave a comment:


  • FuryPilot
    replied
    Okay, I think the previous question has been asked and answered (to death)...

    So let me put another one on the table:

    If I am remembering it correctly, in the first season "Control" ordered Talia's termination because she was a witness to Taro Isogi's assassination.

    And in this in this episode Talia is exposed (I believe) as this same "Control".

    Huh? Am I misremembering this incorrectly, or is this a gaffe?

    FP

    Leave a comment:


  • Joseph DeMartino
    replied
    Phil:

    You're really overthinking this. Occam's razor, man. The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is to be preferred. You're creating a whole series of assumptions that aren't based on anything in the show in order to create a "plot hole" where none exists. Your question has been answered at least three times, by my count. Susan knows that Lyta is about to send a thought (not probe, not try to read Susan's mind, just send a thought) and she's so paranoid and worked up about it that she's probably unconciously in "blocking" mode every time she's in Lyta's presence. Talia is walking into a meeting with the command staff - a meeting to which she has been invited, and she's walking in as Talia. The secondary personality is not in control.

    You can be the world's greatest martial arts champ and still get blindsided if your guard is down. If we work together and you come into my office expecting to find a birthday party in progress, I can probably lay you out with a baseball bat before you know what hit you. But even my grandmother could probably dodge the swing of my bat if she saw me coming from across the room yelling, "I'm gonna hit you with this bat."

    That is sufficient explantion for what we see in the episode and it contradicts nothing that we see in this or any other episode.

    As for using Talia because she could block the password -this again requires that we ignore what we are told in the episode and substitute unsupported speculation. Why would we do that?

    1. We're told Control chose someone within the command staff or close to it, who would not arrouse suspicion. Since some elements of the organziation sometimes known as Bureau 13 were Psi Corps they probably has easier access to telepaths than to others.

    2. We're told that the password is a failsafe, and emergency measure to put the implanted personality in control and "delete" the original personality if the mission were in jeopardy. We're also told that the subject is not aware of the code, and that damned few people in Psi Corps know about either the sleeper program or the code(s) (Assuming there is a different code for each sleeper.) It cost lives even to get the code to Lyta. It isn't like Bureau 13 is worried about Teeps casually broadcasting this code around.

    3. The implanted personality is dormant when the original is awake. That means the only one who could block the password is Talia herself - except Talia doesn't know that such a password exists or that she has an implanted personality.

    4. The only people of all the hundreds scanned who know about the sleeper personality and the password are Sheridan and company. As noted, Talia doesn't even know Lyta is on the station, much less why. Therefore the sleeper personality doesn't either.

    5. Lyta, again, is merely sending a (probably nonsense) word. She isn't scanning. And you can't defend against a word, because by the time you know its coming, you've already "heard" it. We know that teeps carry on telepathic conversations all the time (Bester prefers to do this even with mundanes because he considers normal speech inefficient.) It must not take very much for a teep to "talk" enough above the normal background level of "leaked" thought to be heard.

    Imagine a more normal situation. Lyta is visiting the station, and is in Sheridan's office. Talia arrives for a meeting and as she enters the room Lyta, who is off to one side of the room, telepathically says, "Hi Talia!" How and why would Talia "block" that? How could she block it if she (unlike Susan) a) didn't know it was coming and b) wasn't totally paranoid about telepaths having any contact with her mind whatsoever.

    So what happens if Lyta sends, 'Hi Talia! Isn't it a nice PASSWORD"?

    It is hard to say what happens to Talia. According to the Telepath Novels even Michael Garibaldi, with all his wealth, contacts and influence, is never able to determine her fate. But Bester was almost certainly doing what Ivanova suggested and simply trying to draw a reaction from Garibaldi with that incredibly obvious "slip" of the tongue. JMS is famous for laying his cards on the table: "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die". "It is a long time from now, 20 years, and I am an old man..." The vision of the last shuttel and the destruction of Babylon 5. Yet when a character in the episode says, "Ignore what Bester said, he was just trying to make you angry to read your thoughts" we get 10 years of "So, did they really dissect Talia?" posts.

    Regards,

    Joe

    Leave a comment:


  • Jan
    replied
    Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
    My point is Talia WAS trained. She should have been able to block the pw thought.
    I've always assumed that the fun-loving folks who'd created the false personality would have created a...block?...anti-block?...so that the subject would be *incapable* of blocking the password.

    Jan

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil Harmonic
    replied
    Also I would think this would be they VERY REASON to make a Teep the carrier. If a normal human was carrying the alternate personallity, there would be no defense against another teep sending the passcode and ruining the mission. To me it seem Talia was selected BECAUSE she was a teep and to send the password another telepath would have to tunnel past her natural mind defenses. Not too likely considering Psi Corp was behind this program. Talia was trained in Psi Corp all her life and can't stop a telepathic thought sent from someone of equal power? My point of mention Susan is she was a P1, regardless if she knew it was coming or not it took awhile for Lyta to tunnel past her natural defenses. Also all telepaths can tell when they are being scanned.

    Also did Psi Corp REALLY dissect her or was Bester being a Jovial Ass as usual?

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil Harmonic
    replied
    Originally posted by Susitcha
    Yes thank you Shabaz

    I was trying to make the point though that being blocked by a latent teep or even a mundane is possible, but it does take training. Susan trained herself as a child to block her mother.
    My point is Talia WAS trained. She should have been able to block the pw thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • Phil Harmonic
    replied
    Originally posted by Shabaz
    It did? Hmmm... guess my memory is a bit messed up with regards to Lyta timeline related events.
    It did because in that episode she was talking about been drawn back to Vorlon space and how eventually, she would get there.
    Last edited by Phil Harmonic; 09-09-2006, 02:29 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Susitcha
    replied
    Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
    Um how the hell could Lyta send the PW to Talia when even Ivaniva was blocking her, she's not even a P1 she said but Talia is a P5, same as Lyta (At the time).
    Talia did not know it was coming, Susan did! It would have been sent in an instant with no chance to block. That was the whole point of not telling the staff why they were being called to the office.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X