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The episode where Talia is exposed

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  • #16
    No, you're remembering it correctly. I think the most commonly accepted explanation is that it was a different department/branch/program/etc. than the one that was responsible for Talia's implanted personality. And as we all know, different departments of the same government never step on each other's toes.

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    • #17
      Real world explanation?

      The whole sleeper personality concept dates back to the original pilot, and then it was kept alive via "Control" without too many speciifcs, for two reasons:

      1) For a Talia storyline down the road (one in which Kosh's datacrystal recording probably would have been used to get her back)

      2) as a trap door for any of several characters/actors if something came up before the Talia storyline. So while there was a lot of foreshadowing with Talia and mirrors and lines about "things that live inside us", until Andrea decided to leave and JMS actually pulled the trigger on the idea, "Control" could have turned out to be someone else. It was planned for Talia (going back to "Midnight" - "I don't feel like a victim") but the option was always there to go another way if the situation changed suddnely and JMS needed a quick exit for someone else. At the time of "A Spider in the Web" JMS didn't know how he was ultimately going to resolve that whole storyline.

      3) JMS may always have conceived of "Control" as being more than one entity with subordinate "controls" responsible for different areas at different times. This was certainly what he suggested later, with the San Diego "Control" being different than the "B5" Control. Since the orders to kill Talia came via a Babcom terminal, it is hard to tell which "Control" they were coming from. Also in compartmented organizations like Bureau 13 it is not unusual for one group of agents to have no idea what another is up to. San Diego Control, eager to protect the Zombie program, may have had no idea that Talia Winters was a deep cover agent for either another branch of Bureau 13 itself or for some other covert ops unit. So it just saw her as another civilian threat.

      Or it may be that they were aware of her but that at this point in the story protecting the Zombie program and derailing the Mars independence movement are simply a higher priority than keeping an eye on the B5 command staff. (Don't forget, at this point the B5 folks are not overtly investigating the death of Santiago, Clark hasn't started any blatantly illegal moves and the crew's loyalty isn't highly suspect. Talia's implanted personality is more of an insurance policy than anything else. She's keeping on eye on a possible future threat, and maybe moving herself into a position where she can influence the command staff. But basically, she's expendable. They can always put another teep with an implanted personality in there and find another way to get close to the right people. The priorities even of her own implanted personality might be such that it would order the death of Talia if leaving her alive would jeopardize the over-all mission of the organization. Most military and paramilitary organizations expect their personnel to die, if there is no other choice, rather than allow a vital mission to fail or the organization to be dangerously compromised. So it isn't impossible that Talia 2.0/Control ordered the hit on "our" Talia.

      Regards,

      Joe
      Joseph DeMartino
      Sigh Corps
      Pat Tallman Division

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      • #18
        I always thought that Control (that is, Talia 2.0) ordered the hit on Talia 1.0:
        a) to get her closer to Ivanova and Garibaldi, and
        b) to protect its cover in front of thirteen itself, and anyone in case the operation was exposed.
        Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

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        • #19
          I remember from some of JMS' interviews that Control was originally supposed to be Lt.Cmdr Something from The Gathering. But for some reason she didn't stay in the show.



          Dip

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Dipper
            I remember from some of JMS' interviews that Control was originally supposed to be Lt.Cmdr Something from The Gathering. But for some reason she didn't stay in the show.
            Lieutenant Commander Laurel Takashima, and yes, she was originally going to have been Control, and it would have been she/Control that shot Garibaldi in the back at the end of season one.

            It's my understanding that with there being a year in real time between the production of "The Gathering" and the first episode of season one -- thanks to some other shows in the PTEN syndication package not being ready to roll into filming when PTEN had initially scheduled to do so, and thus B5 having to sit around waiting for the other shows to catch up, production-wise -- that the options in the actors' contracts had expired, causing them to have to negotiate new contracts with all the actors from B5, and that led to several actors deciding to not return, one of which was the one who played Takashima.

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            • #21
              Laurel Takashima was the original "Control" so the idea that Controls would need to be telepaths is not borne out by the facts as we know them.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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              • #22
                Yes,

                I think it is more that the creation of a control is a process done by telepathy amongst other things no doubt. So it makes sense that the password would be telepathic..

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                • #23
                  It never make much sense for Talia to be given a second personality. Psi Corps could simply order her to return to Teeptown, say for a training course or pension planning. Once there they have the authority to scan her.
                  Andrew Swallow

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
                    It never make much sense for Talia to be given a second personality. Psi Corps could simply order her to return to Teeptown, say for a training course or pension planning. Once there they have the authority to scan her.
                    I'd guess thats why JMS introduced the idea that the second personality was subconiously influencing her actions in order to get her into the position to gather more info(or acting directly by trying to kill Lyta). Also remember that the password being delivered and her original personally erased was only an emergencey method, it could be that they planned to do exactly what you mentioned without activating it.

                    To go OT a little was in ever revealed when exactly Talia was planned to return if Andrea Thompson had not left the show?
                    Last edited by moreorless; 09-13-2006, 01:54 AM.
                    Who are you?
                    What do you want?
                    What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by moreorless
                      To go OT a little was in ever revealed when exactly Talia was planned to return if Andrea Thompson had not left the show?
                      I don't think that "Divided Loyalties" would have even been written if it weren't for Andrea leaving. As stated above, the sleeper personality was one of JMS's 'trap doors' and so was probably an idea kept for just such an occasion as an actor deciding to leave so I don't think Talia would have ever left if AT hadn't asked to be released from her contract.

                      Jan
                      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Jan
                        I don't think that "Divided Loyalties" would have even been written if it weren't for Andrea leaving. As stated above, the sleeper personality was one of JMS's 'trap doors' and so was probably an idea kept for just such an occasion as an actor deciding to leave so I don't think Talia would have ever left if AT hadn't asked to be released from her contract.

                        Jan
                        The Kosh memory record seems to point to him wanting to use a similar plot at some point in the series, I spose at better question would be at what point would that plot have been used?
                        Who are you?
                        What do you want?
                        What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                        • #27
                          Maybe we'll find out when the outline is published in Volume 15. I've never decided whether that crystal was meant to be used as a weapon or not. Some have theorized that it would be used to reclaim the original personality but if so, he certainly chose odd things to record: "Reflection. Surprise. Terror. For the future."

                          Jan
                          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jan
                            Maybe we'll find out when the outline is published in Volume 15. I've never decided whether that crystal was meant to be used as a weapon or not. Some have theorized that it would be used to reclaim the original personality but if so, he certainly chose odd things to record: "Reflection. Surprise. Terror. For the future."

                            Jan
                            I'd guess that was partly to keep it fairly criptic so the viewer couldnt guess too much from it and maybe so it could be used as either.
                            Who are you?
                            What do you want?
                            What is the average inflight speed of an unladened swallow?

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                            • #29
                              I always wondered what the crystal Kosh got was going to be used for.
                              My Blog and more - Click here

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                              • #30
                                Don't forget about Jason Ironheart and Tailia's new gift of TK powers etc. I expect that Talia was always going to develop into the "nuclear weapon / doomsday" telepath, created by the Vorlons, that Lyta ultimately became.

                                Probably there was still going to be the plot about betrayal and the elimination of the original Talia and "creation" by Kosh of new Talia with her enhanced powers and fit the same role Lyta had.

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