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The episode where Talia is exposed

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  • The episode where Talia is exposed

    Um how the hell could Lyta send the PW to Talia when even Ivaniva was blocking her, she's not even a P1 she said but Talia is a P5, same as Lyta (At the time).
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  • #2
    At the time, Lyta was not a P5 any more, I'm pretty sure. It was set after she was adjusted by the Vorlons, right? I'm not entirely sure how Ivanova blocking her or not played out again, to be honest. But while she might have put up a block that Lyta could sense, I doubt Lyta would've had a problem with getting past it. All Lyta would've had to do was push, and I don't think all that much either, to get past a block.
    Last edited by Shabaz; 09-08-2006, 11:59 PM.

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    • #3
      It is possible that the area of the brain may be a standard area used for inter-telepath communication. The P5s may have been trained to have it open permanently. Talia may be able to close it but in a mundane only enviroment would not see the need. Susan is untrained so she blocks everything.
      Andrew Swallow

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      • #4
        This happened before Lyta went off to Vorlon space.

        Perhaps it was simply that Ivanova knew what Lyta was doing,and couldn't help herself, whereas Talia walked into the room unprepared for anything other than her normal blocking of background thoughts when Lyta sent the password.

        Talia didn't even know that Lyta was on the station, and certainly had no idea that she was in Sheridan's office sending a focussed telepathic password to everyone she saw.

        If I know someone is trying to punch me in the face, I am going to get my hands up pretty quickly to defend myself. If I just walk into a room and someone swings ... fat lip city.
        The Optimist: The glass is half full
        The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
        The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair
          This happened before Lyta went off to Vorlon space.
          It did? Hmmm... guess my memory is a bit messed up with regards to Lyta timeline related events.

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          • #6
            Even non telepaths can block a casual scan. I can't remember which episode it was, I think it might have been after Lyta was altered when they had her scan a prisoner for some information. It went something like this...

            Lyta "OooH! He is blocking me singing songs doing math, Hey you forgot to carry the one!"

            Prisoner "screw you!"

            Lyta "That was a mistake, when you got mad you forgot to distract yourself from distracting yourself and I slipped through."

            Lyta to Garibaldi "Got it, I fixed so he wont remeber anything."

            My point is Lyta was just surprised that Susan offered any ressistance, it takes training to be able to do it, and Susan's blocking was obviously instinctual. She said to Sheriden that she learned to keep her mother out when she wanted to. So no mystery there really!

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            • #7
              I believe that was the guy send to assassinate Garibaldi and Lise, by the Edgars Industries Board of Directors.

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              • #8
                Yes thank you Shabaz

                I was trying to make the point though that being blocked by a latent teep or even a mundane is possible, but it does take training. Susan trained herself as a child to block her mother.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
                  Um how the hell could Lyta send the PW to Talia when even Ivaniva was blocking her, she's not even a P1 she said but Talia is a P5, same as Lyta (At the time).
                  Talia did not know it was coming, Susan did! It would have been sent in an instant with no chance to block. That was the whole point of not telling the staff why they were being called to the office.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Shabaz
                    It did? Hmmm... guess my memory is a bit messed up with regards to Lyta timeline related events.
                    It did because in that episode she was talking about been drawn back to Vorlon space and how eventually, she would get there.
                    Last edited by Phil Harmonic; 09-09-2006, 02:29 PM.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Susitcha
                      Yes thank you Shabaz

                      I was trying to make the point though that being blocked by a latent teep or even a mundane is possible, but it does take training. Susan trained herself as a child to block her mother.
                      My point is Talia WAS trained. She should have been able to block the pw thought.
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                      • #12
                        Also I would think this would be they VERY REASON to make a Teep the carrier. If a normal human was carrying the alternate personallity, there would be no defense against another teep sending the passcode and ruining the mission. To me it seem Talia was selected BECAUSE she was a teep and to send the password another telepath would have to tunnel past her natural mind defenses. Not too likely considering Psi Corp was behind this program. Talia was trained in Psi Corp all her life and can't stop a telepathic thought sent from someone of equal power? My point of mention Susan is she was a P1, regardless if she knew it was coming or not it took awhile for Lyta to tunnel past her natural defenses. Also all telepaths can tell when they are being scanned.

                        Also did Psi Corp REALLY dissect her or was Bester being a Jovial Ass as usual?
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
                          My point is Talia WAS trained. She should have been able to block the pw thought.
                          I've always assumed that the fun-loving folks who'd created the false personality would have created a...block?...anti-block?...so that the subject would be *incapable* of blocking the password.

                          Jan
                          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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                          • #14
                            Phil:

                            You're really overthinking this. Occam's razor, man. The simplest explanation that covers all the evidence is to be preferred. You're creating a whole series of assumptions that aren't based on anything in the show in order to create a "plot hole" where none exists. Your question has been answered at least three times, by my count. Susan knows that Lyta is about to send a thought (not probe, not try to read Susan's mind, just send a thought) and she's so paranoid and worked up about it that she's probably unconciously in "blocking" mode every time she's in Lyta's presence. Talia is walking into a meeting with the command staff - a meeting to which she has been invited, and she's walking in as Talia. The secondary personality is not in control.

                            You can be the world's greatest martial arts champ and still get blindsided if your guard is down. If we work together and you come into my office expecting to find a birthday party in progress, I can probably lay you out with a baseball bat before you know what hit you. But even my grandmother could probably dodge the swing of my bat if she saw me coming from across the room yelling, "I'm gonna hit you with this bat."

                            That is sufficient explantion for what we see in the episode and it contradicts nothing that we see in this or any other episode.

                            As for using Talia because she could block the password -this again requires that we ignore what we are told in the episode and substitute unsupported speculation. Why would we do that?

                            1. We're told Control chose someone within the command staff or close to it, who would not arrouse suspicion. Since some elements of the organziation sometimes known as Bureau 13 were Psi Corps they probably has easier access to telepaths than to others.

                            2. We're told that the password is a failsafe, and emergency measure to put the implanted personality in control and "delete" the original personality if the mission were in jeopardy. We're also told that the subject is not aware of the code, and that damned few people in Psi Corps know about either the sleeper program or the code(s) (Assuming there is a different code for each sleeper.) It cost lives even to get the code to Lyta. It isn't like Bureau 13 is worried about Teeps casually broadcasting this code around.

                            3. The implanted personality is dormant when the original is awake. That means the only one who could block the password is Talia herself - except Talia doesn't know that such a password exists or that she has an implanted personality.

                            4. The only people of all the hundreds scanned who know about the sleeper personality and the password are Sheridan and company. As noted, Talia doesn't even know Lyta is on the station, much less why. Therefore the sleeper personality doesn't either.

                            5. Lyta, again, is merely sending a (probably nonsense) word. She isn't scanning. And you can't defend against a word, because by the time you know its coming, you've already "heard" it. We know that teeps carry on telepathic conversations all the time (Bester prefers to do this even with mundanes because he considers normal speech inefficient.) It must not take very much for a teep to "talk" enough above the normal background level of "leaked" thought to be heard.

                            Imagine a more normal situation. Lyta is visiting the station, and is in Sheridan's office. Talia arrives for a meeting and as she enters the room Lyta, who is off to one side of the room, telepathically says, "Hi Talia!" How and why would Talia "block" that? How could she block it if she (unlike Susan) a) didn't know it was coming and b) wasn't totally paranoid about telepaths having any contact with her mind whatsoever.

                            So what happens if Lyta sends, 'Hi Talia! Isn't it a nice PASSWORD"?

                            It is hard to say what happens to Talia. According to the Telepath Novels even Michael Garibaldi, with all his wealth, contacts and influence, is never able to determine her fate. But Bester was almost certainly doing what Ivanova suggested and simply trying to draw a reaction from Garibaldi with that incredibly obvious "slip" of the tongue. JMS is famous for laying his cards on the table: "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die". "It is a long time from now, 20 years, and I am an old man..." The vision of the last shuttel and the destruction of Babylon 5. Yet when a character in the episode says, "Ignore what Bester said, he was just trying to make you angry to read your thoughts" we get 10 years of "So, did they really dissect Talia?" posts.

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                            Joe
                            Joseph DeMartino
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                            Pat Tallman Division

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                            • #15
                              Okay, I think the previous question has been asked and answered (to death)...

                              So let me put another one on the table:

                              If I am remembering it correctly, in the first season "Control" ordered Talia's termination because she was a witness to Taro Isogi's assassination.

                              And in this in this episode Talia is exposed (I believe) as this same "Control".

                              Huh? Am I misremembering this incorrectly, or is this a gaffe?

                              FP

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