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Watching Babylon 5 with L - season 4

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  • Watching Babylon 5 with L - season 4

    Hour of the wolf
    So before we watched the opning credits L asked "I ssheridan Dead" I knwo we wondeed the same thing, we had, after all a change of commander before so th epossibility did exist. Tehre were several comments on the state of Ivanavov's hair as she deteriorasted through the show. She loved the trilby on G'Kar and didn't recognise the various vaoices that played over the season 4 credits sequence (we alawys watch the new sequence at least once, then usually skip it. There were comparisons to the as yet unnamed alien that asks to share Sheridan's fire. Some coments about Lyta and Ul-kesh too but nothing comes to mind.
    This post may be edited after L sees it, and remember spoilers including that aliens name and race should be hidden.
    "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

  • #2
    Well I assume L saw it by now. So I remember personally had a ton of questions after originally seeing this one. And if nothing come to mind then maybe L should start writing these posts since you can't remember. LOL
    Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

    Comment


    • #3
      whatever happened to Mr garibaldi
      So we enter the 2nd episode and Lorien is named. I didn't inform L at the time that't he's played by Wayne Alexander, aka Sebastien, he who tortured sheirdan and Delenn in "comes the inquisitor". Much discussion about how circuar and spiritual Lorien chats are, she stated that he must find it annoying as she certainly did. Shortly afterwards sheridan thrust Lorien up against a wall. Upon "the sun has risen and fallen 9 times" she asked was the day length on zha'ha;dom the ame as that of earth or whatever the galacitc standard happened to be. Much amusement at the interactions beween g'kar and marcus but also thought it was foolish of G'kar to send marcus away as it would lead to him being captured as it inevitably did. No real comment about the fade to black as Sheridan surrenders to tock, although L did seem quite gripped by it.
      The summoning
      Nowhere near as many observations on this episode, we note the change in garibaldi's attitude Also quite a storng comment fomr L on how when Delenn, or the women speak about an attack then everyone ignore them, but when the man speaks they pay attention. Whether that's writers conceit or a comment on the patriarchy I'll leave as an excercise for the reader. more later memory and consciousnessfading
      "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by phazedout View Post
        Also quite a storng comment fomr L on how when Delenn, or the women speak about an attack then everyone ignore them, but when the man speaks they pay attention. Whether that's writers conceit or a comment on the patriarchy I'll leave as an excercise for the reader.
        What's L referring to? Where Sheridan joins Delenn on the catwalk and convinces the crowd to join them in forming the largest fleet ever? I'm afraid I have to just as strongly suggest that L is seeing what she wants to see rather than what's there. Because the entire premise of the Ambassador was that nobody returns from Z'ha'dum. And then in walks Sheridan. It had nothing to do with his being male, it was all about his being *alive*.

        "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jan View Post
          What's L referring to? Where Sheridan joins Delenn on the catwalk and convinces the crowd to join them in forming the largest fleet ever? I'm afraid I have to just as strongly suggest that L is seeing what she wants to see rather than what's there. Because the entire premise of the Ambassador was that nobody returns from Z'ha'dum. And then in walks Sheridan. It had nothing to do with his being male, it was all about his being *alive*.
          A reply has bin requested and is reproduced below
          Originally posted by L
          Yes. I get it's about Sheridan having returned fro Z'ha'dum. But. While he was away it all fell apart. Nobody would listen to Delenn and Ivanova trying to talk to them. They simply did not get the same respect Sheridan did when he was at the helm. And yes, it happens they were women and it happens he is a male. Like it happens in real life still so many times. If you choose not to see that there's not much I can do to try to explain it to you. While there are women in high positions and in important roles on B5, there's still quite a clear 90s feeling about it, in the way they are portrayed. They are not equal at all.
          "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

          Comment


          • #6
            We're gonna have to disagree on this one.

            What fell apart? Nothing. Delenn was in command of the station and sent Zack out and he retrieved Garibaldi. Delenn arranged a fleet to attack Z'ha'dum including the Rangers and some of the League. Ivanova was out looking for First Ones so you can't blame her for anything 'falling apart'. Well, she also discovered the Vorlon fleet hiding in hyperspace, too, thankfully. If by 'falling apart' you mean the demonstration in the Zocalo, I'm afraid we've got different definitions. That's kinda what happens when people are afraid. And Ivanova wasn't even there.

            When Sheridan arrived and changed her plan completely, it had nothing to do with his being male. It was entirely dictated by the story. Sheridan didn't just send out 'Maleness' vibes to shut down the demonstration. He sent out 'Look Who's Alive' vibes. If Ivanova or Delenn had returned alive from Z'ha'dum, the exact same thing would have happened.

            Yes, they most certainly are equal. As for there being a "90s feeling" - that's probably because it *was* the 90s.

            ETA: Love having somebody with a different viewpoint to discuss with!!
            Last edited by Jan; 09-26-2019, 01:12 PM.
            "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

            Comment


            • #7
              Well I'm a male who was alive in "The 90s" so let me chime in and put an end to this debate.

              I can see both points here, but I do have to somewhat agree with Jan. However, I will stipulate that L is correct that JMS did choose for it to be a male perspective that re-centered focus and JMS is a male. BUT I believe that had he chosen for it to be Delenn whom returned from Z'Ha'Dum the effect would have been the same. While JMS consciously made the decision to make it appear a male might be the lead hero I think he did an excellent job at trying to balance that. You have to put the whole thing into context and that context has to do with the very fact that it was "The 90s". "The 90s" is still an era where the majority of people controlling the purse strings on a show like Babylon 5 were males. Most males who controlled purse strings in "The 90s" were males who came with a lot of chauvinism. They still exist today, but possibly in fewer numbers. Yes L might be right that it has to do with JMS being male, but L might be wrong and it has more to do with JMS feeling the need to appease the system that was going to finance his project while also challenging the foundations of that system. Say what you will about Sheridan, Delenn is a formidable hero who commands the respect of MANY. Fear may have caused some level of waiver in that respect, but it was also the fact that Sheridan's disappeared during what many would have considered a plan she participated in. Because she is a leader they followed and it appeared she failed on some level that would increase the fear.

              Long story long, L has a point but L is holding it to a standard that is almost 30 years after the fact. For its time, Babylon 5 embraced a male savior, but also embraced female savior's in other episodes [see SEVERED DREAMS 3.10] - something that didn't happen as often in other series back then. It also must be taken into consideration that the crux of the LIGHT / DARK Arc is initiated and headed by Delenn. In many ways Sheridan is a tool used to carry out Delenn's plan to save the galaxy.
              Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Looney View Post
                It also must be taken into consideration that the crux of the LIGHT / DARK Arc is initiated and headed by Delenn. In many ways Sheridan is a tool used to carry out Delenn's plan to save the galaxy.
                Good point. And anyway, one simply must allow the one with the lead credit to be heroic every once in a while. I think it's a Rule.
                "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

                Comment


                • #9
                  falling towards apotheosis
                  hige arcy stuff here. Few enough comments from L, she did note how Ivanova looked and during the final battle with the vorlon and all the flashing lightning sutff she had to look away for fear of getting a migriane (to clarify we watch this on my home system, a benq 1080p projector on to a 110" screen, with a dolby digital 5.1 system, upscaled dvd from playstation 3 via hdmi). She did speculate before lyta led the vorlon to his death that she wasn't carrying any of him. She also noted that teh ship was both living and part of the vorlon before it every became obvious from the stuff on screen. Going to the other "A" arc (there are no B arcs here) she predicted cartagia plucking out g'kar's eye.although she didn't say anything about it closing the circle opened in war without end, she did wonder if it was significant, i replied that "in this show, everything is signifcant". Oh andi just remembered she spotted g'kar was goign to break the chains and that Vir would be the one to kill cartagia
                  The Long night
                  Stayed fairly quiet in this episode, did note in the war room the lack of female characters, delenn aside. I pointed out it wouldn't be obviousthe gneder of some of the alien races. I also indicated brian Cranston as the tragically sarificing erriccson. I've always felt that was a powerful moment showing the cost of war and havign to ask people to die for you. Not much else was said fot this episode, i may edit the post later after L sees it and add some things.
                  "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by phazedout View Post
                    falling towards apotheosis
                    hige arcy stuff here. Few enough comments from L, she did note how Ivanova looked and during the final battle with the vorlon and all the flashing lightning sutff she had to look away for fear of getting a migriane (to clarify we watch this on my home system, a benq 1080p projector on to a 110" screen, with a dolby digital 5.1 system, upscaled dvd from playstation 3 via hdmi). She did speculate before lyta led the vorlon to his death that she wasn't carrying any of him. She also noted that teh ship was both living and part of the vorlon before it every became obvious from the stuff on screen. Going to the other "A" arc (there are no B arcs here) she predicted cartagia plucking out g'kar's eye.although she didn't say anything about it closing the circle opened in war without end, she did wonder if it was significant, i replied that "in this show, everything is signifcant". Oh andi just remembered she spotted g'kar was goign to break the chains and that Vir would be the one to kill cartagia
                    Firstly, from what I have gathered from previous posts you tend to move around often. How do you take your "home system" with you?

                    How were there few comments for this one? I guess L was captivated. A bit sorry she was able to predict what would happen and wasn't surprised.

                    Originally posted by phazedout View Post
                    The Long night
                    Stayed fairly quiet in this episode, did note in the war room the lack of female characters, delenn aside. I pointed out it wouldn't be obviousthe gneder of some of the alien races. I also indicated brian Cranston as the tragically sarificing erriccson. I've always felt that was a powerful moment showing the cost of war and havign to ask people to die for you. Not much else was said fot this episode, i may edit the post later after L sees it and add some things.
                    So I assume L had nothing to add. You are correct that it is a powerful moment when Ericsson is sacrificed. I love that JMS included that aspect into the series arc. The only weak aspect of this moment is that Ericsson wasn't a significant character so we didn't heightened emotional impact that would have come had it been someone like Ivanova or even a character that had been in more than one episode.

                    Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Looney View Post
                      So I assume L had nothing to add. You are correct that it is a powerful moment when Ericsson is sacrificed. I love that JMS included that aspect into the series arc. The only weak aspect of this moment is that Ericsson wasn't a significant character so we didn't heightened emotional impact that would have come had it been someone like Ivanova or even a character that had been in more than one episode.
                      I LOVED that Sheridan made sure that all of the other ambassadors were present to see him doing what needed to be done. I HATED the "You're not a married man, are you,
                      Ericsson?" part. As if he were the only member of his crew who mattered?!? Yes, I know it was to drill into the audience that this was a suicide mission but still...


                      "Fascism always comes in quietly, holding a flag in one hand and a holy book in the other, inching its way in. The bugles and drums only sound after they've already taken over and believe it's too late to do anything about it." JMS Twitter Dec. 24, 2017

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jan View Post
                        I HATED the "You're not a married man, are you,
                        Ericsson?" part. As if he were the only member of his crew who mattered?!? Yes, I know it was to drill into the audience that this was a suicide mission but still...
                        Very much agreed.
                        Susan Ivanova, "I'll be in the car."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          into the fire
                          Here we see the conclusion of the shadow war. Firstly humblest apologies to L. We watched these episodes last friday, october 11th and I'm only getting aroudn to writing this now. So It'll be horribly generic. I do (faintly) recall L commenting on the fact that ASheriden thanked delenn and complimented her on the allinace she had put together. No commetns surprisngly on th e"get the hell out of our Galaxy" quote or the sacrifice and casual deaths of so many off screen characters. She may have been wowed by the cgi spectacle (which holds up surprisingly well on my 110 projectro screen in 1080p, might be the ps3 upscaling it).
                          Epiphanies
                          Weird thing to notice but both L and me spotted that, despite being in the ffar flung future Lyta clearly shops in ... IKEA. The bags are very cel;arly IKEA brand as L said "Look at the handles". You gotta undersand here many people use the ubiquotous blue bags for carrying laundry. Once again we see bester, some laughter at sheriden's line about "nailing head to table but the unverse prepares us for dsiappointment". L didn't seem to twig it was Lyta blocking bester in the confernce room though.
                          Once again sorry, we will hopefully be watching the next tow episodes tomorrow eveign and I promise to post right aaway.
                          "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            the illusion of truth
                            Hated the accent on the reporter, said tri vid guy looks drugged, tortured and nit very voluntary. Most amused by garibaldi and the drazi statue. Suitably mistrustful of dan randall and said it looked like they were gonna cut and paste what they wanted. Many cynical puffs of breath , why is it called Helsinki and not Stockholm syndrome. Thought dr indira looked and talked like a crackpot Geneva not visible on the usn map, centred on north america . They're nit part of earth alliance, how can earth alliance pay the Bills. Many statements of oh God and oh no. Showing 9 of them and he said 20 or 30. How did Dan know they were humans in cryo? Delenn is the one who became more human. Called Dr Indira the professor on xenophobia story has more holes than a swiss cheese. People are lapping it up like they lap up certain red furred animal branded nees today. After the broadcast surprised nothing was broken and said sheridan looked more angry than sad

                            Atonement
                            his old uniform did not fit him properly , the new one looks better. More minardi weirdness what's going on with him we watched, upon L request, the credits again. Wrong colour eye. Interested in the eye working outside of him looks like ivanova had a wild night. Condescending and smug clan spokesperson. When she has the minbari gowns on she doesnt look like she has much breasts, but with the human thing she suddenly had them she thought Duhkat looked like lineer with a beard . Saw war opening, said it wasn't very peaceful. Shes at the side if the circle, not in the middle. She thought delenn looked even younger . The triangles are very important to them. Expressed shock, that wasn't pretty Delenn. The gun ports thing came up again. Oh God holy wars , other incoherent words. So she is human. Said leineer was becoming markus when he beat up the grey council security. Thinks the offering of delenn shows calenn tombs a racial bigot. Called it bullshit. Gilbert and Sullivan song amused her
                            edit, pasting by request
                            Just really appreciate the joke / irony / juxtaposition or whatever you wanna call it of first declaring she is Delenn of Peace (Mir, don't think we have been.told that before?) and the next scene we not only see war but her starting it too. That was a clever detail.
                            Last edited by phazedout; 10-16-2019, 12:13 PM.
                            "There are no good wars. War is always the worst possible way to resolve differences. It degenerates and corrupts both sides to ever more sordid levels of existence, in their need to gain an advantage over the enemy. Those actively involved in combat are almost always damaged goods for the rest of their lives. If their bodies don't bear scars, their minds do, ofttimes both. Many have said it before, but it can't be said to enough, war is hell. "

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