Question about the Earth-Minbari war.

[killermime88]

Just how many casualties did each side sustain? I remember in the movie "In the Beginning" that Londo was talking about 50-60,000 humans dying in the first few months, but never really talked about Minbari losses. Here are my questions.

1.) Just how many dead and wounded were on each side?

2.) Why did it take so long for the Minbari to beat us back to Earth? Were we just putting up massive resistence or were they just taking their time?

Sorry if these are noobish questions, but I've always been wondering. Thanks!

[Ranger1]

Well how many died no one knows,but since it was the last battle to hold the line and to gain time for the final evacuation to take place (means they were escaping from earth),i would say in the hundred of thousands if not more,but thats just guessing.

Why it took the Minbari so long to reach earth? well space is kinda large,and the Minbari wont go guns blazing without some tactics (like finishing up the colonies and outposts first).

[Kevin]

There's no total number for how many died on both sides in the Earth-Minbari War. Length of the war can be accredited to Minbari ignorance about Earth and it's colonies causing for much need for intellegence (and thus delay), as well as Earth having a *lot* of colonies and small spaceports and such. Just because we only hear about Orion VII, Proxima III, Mars and B5 dosen't mean those are the only earth colonies, those are just the *big* ones.

But, in efforts to give you some sort of an idea... 20,000 humans were on the Battle of the Line. Only under 200 survived. (ref. Late Delivery from Avalon) Minbari only suffered minimal losses, but at the least they lost a good 340 from the destruction of the Blackstar (crew of 190 with an additional 150 ground troops)

[killermime88]

Thanks for the answers. I really appreciate it. I also remember from the movie that the Minbari were tired of the war, so that leaves me to believe it wasn't a cake walk. Londo also said a great many Minbari did die in the war. Just because you control space, doesn't mean you can take the ground by air power alone. (Unless they had something we haven't heard about.) I'm guessing that the ground war gave them headaches as well.

I'm not denying that the Minbari weren't kicking our butts, I'm just think we gave them bloody noses as well. Thanks again, guys.

[fgalkin]

In "And Now for a Word" Torqueman states that 250000 humans died in the Earth Minbari war.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[grumbler]

The Minbari suffered physical casualties from the humans' sacrificial attacks, but they were "tired of war" because they were confused as to whom they were really fighting (the humans of propaganda versus the humans they actually encountered). They had lost sight of the goals of the war, and were fighting by rote, finding it hard to despise those who were so much like them.

We saw one cruiser (c. 1000 crew) destroyed by mines, and another ship (which was smaller but not much) destroyed by ramming. The latter case was shown as being "representative" and so i am assuming that it was not a fluke (and accounts for the later episiodes of "ramming speed" being ordered).

My guess: two dozen minbari cruisers lost, and some hundreds of fighters. Say, 30,000 Minbari dead, and 250,000 EA dead before the Line and another 20,000 at the Line (which seems to me to be too small a number, given the importance of the battle).

[Kevin]

It's not really that small of a number considering how many had already been killed, the fact that not all of their ships could get there in time, and the fact that, as the President very plainly says, it was a suicide mission. There was no way in hell they were expecting the amount of Minbari ships that actually showed (Sinclair's reaction alone showed that was quite a surprise), but even with a significant force, it was still good money that they would all die.

Which means you weren't gonna have a whole lot of people left. You wouldn't after two years of a losing war anyways.

[Radhil]

Well, if you look at the numbers carefully - presuming a Human ship would have the same crew numbers a certain Minbari heavy cruiser had - That's roughly 100 large ships. Massive damn fleet, there. Maybe take away 10 ships to account for fighters lost (and [i]that figure is probably astronomical), but still. Assume more ships as you revise down human crew needs for smaller destroyers or simply less room on the ships. It gets sick. Quickly.

Don't think of the numbers in ground-pounder terms, or like it needs to be World War type numbers. Put it in naval terms and it's a lot clearer what was lost.

[CRONAN]

One minor detail i just cant come to terms with in B5 is the ''Stay in formation'' line by Jeffery Sinclair in The Battle of the Line.

Sure formations for fighters make sense when their en route to a destination or to position themselves correctly (so they dont get too far ahead of their capitol ships and get scragged) before a battle. But during a battle you dont want to have all your fighters parading about in one place, making easy targets. No you want them maneuvering quickly in and out picking off their targets, covering eachother and their capitol ships.

''Hold the Line. Stay in formation. No one gets through no matter what!''???
On the contrary: those lasers got through your wingmen's ships in record time....

Edit: Yes it is conceivable to have a group of fighters form a sphere formation and rely on offense only, but if even one fighter makes a mistake in that scenario the whole wing gets splashed (like ten men with swords trying to halt the advance of a stone throwing mob), esp in the Battle of the Line where you cant target the enemy effectively.

[grumbler]

Cronan, I think what Sinclair was saying was "don't go after the enemy solo" because one-on-one the humans were doomed. Only by staying in formation and cooperating could they effectively engage the enemy's fighters.

Of course, the formation was useless against the size of the fleet they encountered, but this was a suicide mission anyway.

Better to try to retain control than just broadcast: "Do whatever you want. We're all gonna die anyway." It is better for morale, at the least.

[CRONAN]

Here we go again......

Grumbler, the object of the Human side in the Battle of the Line was NOT to commit suicide; it was to keep the Minbari Fleet occupied as long as possible in order to buy time for the evacuation of Earth. Every *second* they kept the enemy occupied would save 1000s of lives.

First off: if you give riddles instead of orders on the battlefield your army will get killed off trying to figure them out; orders must be concise, clear and to the point.

Only by coordinating their attacks and USING EFFECTIVE TACTICS would the humans stand a chance at accomplishing their mission (dying unnecessarily doesnt qualify).

Again I stress: fighers are dependant on their maneuverability to survive; staying in clustered formations during is combat (as seen in ''And a Sky Full of Stars'') NOT EFFECTIVE. In the words of Captain John Sheridan, the fighters need to ''break and attack.'' One tend to think would think staying alive longer would be better for morale.

[Radhil]

Re: Here we go again......

Originally posted by CRONAN
Grumbler, the object of the Human side in the Battle of the Line was NOT to commit suicide; it was to keep the Minbari Fleet occupied as long as possible in order to buy time for the evacuation of Earth. Every *second* they kept the enemy occupied would save 1000s of lives.

Except it was suicide, as everyone joined the battle expecting to get blown to kibble. They were just killing themselves as slowly as possible.

First off: if you give riddles instead of orders on the battlefield your army will get killed off trying to figure them out; orders must be concise, clear and to the point.

"Stay in formation."

Not a soul I know would call that a riddle.

Only by coordinating their attacks and USING EFFECTIVE TACTICS would the humans stand a chance at accomplishing their mission (dying unnecessarily doesnt qualify).

Again I stress: fighers are dependant on their maneuverability to survive; staying in clustered formations during is combat (as seen in ''And a Sky Full of Stars'') NOT EFFECTIVE. In the words of Captain John Sheridan, the fighters need to ''break and attack.'' One tend to think would think staying alive longer would be better for morale.

Break and attack is one tactic among many, and works best when you typically have the advantage of position and/or as you said maneuvarability. This was a fight against drastically superior forces in firepower and maneuverability and technology. Any one on one engagement of a Starfury with any Minbari ship is fatal. There is a better chance of taking out superior ships in formation, either by combining firepower, spreading firepower, or simply being close enough to be able to take a fatal hit to allow someone else to line a shot.

You can see this used to great effect when the White Stars took on the Advanced Destroyer Group in Season 4. White Stars are not fighters, but they are similarly very maneuverable, and Ivanova's formation tactics are arguably what allowed her to win against much larger ships.

[CRONAN]

A debate what joy

I respectfully disagree on many points here Radhil.

quote:
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Originally posted by CRONAN
Grumbler, the object of the Human side in the Battle of the Line was NOT to commit suicide; it was to keep the Minbari Fleet occupied as long as possible in order to buy time for the evacuation of Earth. Every *second* they kept the enemy occupied would save 1000s of lives.
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and quote:
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Originally posted by radhil
Except it was suicide, as everyone joined the battle expecting to get blow to kibble. They were just killing themselves as slowly as possible.
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The issue of weather or not dying in a battle against all odds constitutes suicide or not is debatable. Did he die fighting to the last? Did he intentionally enter the conflict to die? Was he fighting for his own survival at the time of death? Sinclair TRIED to commit suicide......
I really dont want to get involved in a debate like that one. it depends on the circumstances



quote CRONAN:
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First off: if you give riddles instead of orders on the battlefield your army will get killed off trying to figure them out; orders must be concise, clear and to the point.
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Quote radhill:
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"Stay in formation."

Not a soul I know would call that a riddle.
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Nor did was it my intention to imply that. My quote was in aimed towards Grumbler's posting:

''I think what Sinclair was saying was "don't go after the enemy solo" because one-on-one the humans were doomed.''

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Break and attack is one tactic among many, and works best when you typically have the advantage of position and/or as you said maneuvarability. This was a fight against drastically superior forces in firepower and maneuverability and technology. Any one on one engagement of a Starfury with any Minbari ship is fatal. There is a better chance of taking out superior ships in formation, either by combining firepower, spreading firepower, or simply being close enough to be able to take a fatal hit to allow someone else to line a shot.
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Where does the formation end and the maneuvering begin? Does destracting an enemy fighter with your own so a wingman can move in from behind and take it out constitute a formation or merely two seperate fighters cooperating? If the latter, then formations are not necessarily required for two fighters to cooperate effectively in combat.

I believe this is, at any rate, the most effective strategy for the human fighters in that conflict. Yes a one on one battle is not effective in this case (Mitchell!); the best strategy is one of misdirection and trickery to counter the Minbari fighters superior maneuverability (among other things). This requires speed, skill, and cooperation; not the clustered formation we see in ''A Sky Full of Stars.''

[Radhil]

Re: A debate what joy

Originally posted by CRONAN
Where does the formation end and the maneuvering begin? Does destracting an enemy fighter with your own so a wingman can move in from behind and take it out constitute a formation or merely two seperate fighters cooperating? If the latter, then formations are not necessarily required for two fighters to cooperate effectively in combat.

I believe this is, at any rate, the most effective strategy for the human fighters in that conflict. Yes a one on one battle is not effective in this case (Mitchell!); the best strategy is one of misdirection and trickery to counter the Minbari fighters superior maneuverability (among other things). This requires speed, skill, and cooperation; not the clustered formation we see in ''A Sky Full of Stars.''

Well, problem is, this is the point where we get past general strategy and general logic, and into needing the expertise of being a Starfury pilot. An expertise, I might point out, no one can possibly have (in some views, yet).

I might also add that the CGI in earlier episodes seemed to have a learning curve, so the formation we see may have been intended, but not portraying the action as well as it could have. Most of the blow-up shots were off Sinclair's reactions, and didn't exactly paint a flowing picture of the battle. In the Beginning did it better, but it's still not clear.

Dunno, is there a fighter pilot in the audience?

[CRONAN]

Hmmm....

In that case I'll have to rewatch ''In the Begining''.... Though i recall Sinclair stlll says the same line - ''Hold the Line. Stay in formation. No one gets through no matter what,'' in the midst of the battle, which to me makes little sense. Maybe jms could clear this up.

For those who arent aware the simulated experience of B5 Space Combat is availible online as a mod for the space operatic Freespace 2. Never had the chance to try it myself.