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**RCmodeler** · 03-17-2004, 04:29 AM

From: RWWellsBB ([email protected])
Subject: Re: CRUSADE was about Earth & Shadow minions & Technomages!

>I hate TNT for killing the series. Why couldn't they simply TRUST
>jms to do a good job? Idiots.

If you exclude the first half of B5's fifth season, the B5 movies, and the initial scripts of Crusade. Otherwise, JMS's track record at that time was poor and if B5's initial ratings had not been so strong, Crusade would have never been started.

Many of the mistakes of Crusade certainly were not TNT's fault. The music was JMS's idea. The various navel gazing episodes so out of place for a series set against a time limit were JMS's idea. TNT made suggestions: some good, some really moronic but most amounted to minor tweaks to the episodes. JMS's insistence on implementing changes as clumsily as possible probably ensured the demise of Crusade. If someone suggests replacing dialogue with actually showing an event that does not mean finding the worst looking riot footage possible.

**RCmodeler** · 03-17-2004, 04:32 AM

From: Jms at B5 ([email protected])
Subject: Re: CRUSADE was about Earth & Shadow minions & Technomages!
View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv
Date: 2004-03-16 22:05:12 PST

>>I hate TNT for killing the series. Why couldn't they simply TRUST
>>jms to do a good job? Idiots.
>
>If you exclude the first half of B5's fifth season, the B5 movies, and the
>initial scripts of Crusade. Otherwise, JMS's track record at that time was
>poor
>and if B5's initial ratings had not been so strong, Crusade would have never
>been started.

First, the ratings you cite were for the first half of season 5, which you said a moment ago were apparently not up to snuff...so you've got kind of a contradiction there. As for the "poor track record" comment, there are two Hugos, a Ray Bradbury Award from SFWA (the only other one haveing been given to James Cameron) and a dozen other awards sitting on the shelf that say otherwise.

>Many of the mistakes of Crusade certainly were not TNT's fault.

And on what specific information do you base this? Please show your work. You offer this up not as an opinion, but as a statement of direct fact. Please cite the facts to back this up.

>The music was
>JMS's idea.

Yes, it was. And the network also thought it was great. It was a different style, an experiment. Sometimes experiments work, sometimes they don't. It's a better way to live than living a life in which one never tries anything that may fail.

> The various navel gazing episodes so out of place for a series set
>against a time limit were JMS's idea.

Please cite your facts to back this up, and define your terms.

>TNT made suggestions: some good, some
>really moronic but most amounted to minor tweaks to the episodes.

Again, you state this as fact. So in this case, I must assume that you have seen the actual notes from TNT, yes? If not, then how do you justify this statement as anything other than your opinion, offered as fact?

And in point of fact, your statement is utterly false. Some of their
suggestions included:

"Can we lose the makeup on Dureena (our resident alien character) and make her an alien by her attitude?"

"We'd like to have one of the characters include a sexual explorer, so when they make contact with a new race, his or her job is to go and have sex with them."

"We want to see more fist-fights on the bridge."

"We'd like to see an episode worked around a wrestler, since wrestling is hot right now."

"We think you should give the captain a dog for a pet."

"Rather than have the characters work their way out of the problem as depicted, we think it would be better if Captain Gideon arranges to have Dureena compromised so the antagonist will rape her, and Gideon will catch him in the act, and use this as blackmail to get the character to back off his demands."

Minor tweaks?

>JMS's
>insistence on implementing changes as clumsily as possible probably ensured
>the
>demise of Crusade.

Again, you are citing my intention, and my decision on how to implement changes. Please show your work and back this statement up. Further, the decision to cancel Crusade had nothing to do with the content of the show, but rather, as we learned later, the fact that TNT's market research had found that the B5 audience came in for B5 and didn't stay for any of TNT's other programming, and they decided they wanted out, in favor of shows that would bring in a sustained audience increase.

But you didn't know that, did you? Why? Because you have no idea what you're talking about, and are sitting here, behind your keyboard, where you think you're an expert on things you know nothign about, batting around your own opinions as though they were facts hoping that someone would buy the bullshit.

The only problem, of course, is when someone who actually has the facts contradicts your statements or asks you to back them up.

Which you can't. Because they're not true.

Oh, and as for --

>If someone suggests replacing dialogue with actually showing
>an event that does not mean finding the worst looking riot footage possible.

Sorry, but that was also done at TNT's direction. They demanded the inclusion of riot footage at the last moment to show the big repercussions, even though nothing was available that would work. Nor would they give us much money to buy anything else. Those were the shots that met with their approval.

But again, you don't know what you're talking about, so really, what's an exec producer to do?

jms

([email protected])
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and don't send me story ideas)
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**Jan** · 03-17-2004, 06:47 AM

Re: JMS cleans someone's clock! (March 16)

Originally posted by RCmodeler
Maybe a sadist at heart, but I just LOVE when jms comes in and tears apart a trolling poster. It's so... entertaining.

:-)

Yay, JMS!

Yeah, he really does it well, doesn't he?

Jan

**Kevin** · 03-17-2004, 08:39 AM

That he does indeed

It's really... refreshing, to say the least ;P

**frulad** · 03-17-2004, 08:58 AM

"We think you should give the captain a dog for a pet."

Does this exec now work over at UPN?

**Kevin** · 03-17-2004, 09:46 AM

Does this exec now work over at UPN?

Most likely

**circularREASON** · 03-17-2004, 12:11 PM

JMS - Very good ( I quite liked crusade - especially the last ep )

The fans are with you - ignore the Idiots.

**grumbler** · 03-17-2004, 03:00 PM

It has happened enough times that you would think that we would get tired of it... but like the rest of you, I never do!

**Dr Maturin** · 03-17-2004, 06:02 PM

Jeez, JMS is not a very humble guy. I dislike people who brag. This one guy I know used to call and e-mail every time he bought something. "I got a NEW laptop!" Awards mean pretty much nothing, unless they are chosen by fans. I don't know if Hugos and SFWA's are, but who cares? I would have just laughed off the ignoramus. My mom used to have a saying..."Laugh your way to the bank."

And even though Voyager buggered up the episode with The Rock, I think they could have worked a wrestler into an episode in a really creative way. The rest of the ideas from TNT were erroneous, though.

**DDC2000** · 03-17-2004, 07:56 PM

Hulk Hogan guest stars on Crusade...

Next week on Crusade...Hulk Hogan guest stars...as a Bounty Hunter looking for...the lost shield of Atlantis...rumored to be held by... a group of scantily-clad Amazon women located on a tropical planet. Story written by TNT execs.

In one of our interactive fan fictions many years ago we did a what-if where some TNT wrasslers guest starred on Crusade or if TNT wrote Crusade.

Anyway, rather than stir up that Crusade script topic any more than necessary, here's a link to my ISN.NEWS.NET topic about the JMS versus TNT Saga. There are several synopsis of the unproduced Crusade scripts. At least a bit more information than those other links.

You can read the topic as a "Guest". You do not need to log in or join.

ISN News Forums

http://www.isnnews.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2244

ISN News: Forums. Dedicated to Sci-Fi Discussions.

**DDC2000** · 03-17-2004, 08:03 PM

BTW:

Thanks for the posts about JMS versus the B5 troll.

As to JMS *bragging*, I think it was more to point out his *credentials* to the troll, to make a point.

And there's always someone that loves to come onto a board and say *your show stinks* just to sit back and watch the reactions. We patrol our boards heavily so we rarely get those problems anymore. See ya!

DDC2000
Admin/Moderator
from the isnnews.net forums.

**OmahaStar** · 03-17-2004, 08:33 PM

DDC, did they ever get rid of the pop-ups from hell over there?

**Radhil** · 03-17-2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
Awards mean pretty much nothing, unless they are chosen by fans. I don't know if Hugos and SFWA's are, but who cares? I would have just laughed off the ignoramus. My mom used to have a saying..."Laugh your way to the bank."

Thought the Hugos were a fan award. I could be wrong though.

Have to say though.... er... "Awards mean pretty much nothing, unless they are chosen by fans" then "but who cares?" *scratches head* You , er,... did, last sentence? Logic Error - Press Ctrl-Alt-Del.

Only kinda sorta agree with the point you were trying to make though. If awards were chosen by fans, Star Wars I and II would have made best picture, and I don't know if the universe could handle that. An award's merit is the merit of the people behind it, minority or majority. But I guess the merit depends on perspective anyway.

**iamsheridan** · 03-17-2004, 10:59 PM

I hated most of TNTs notes, but this one was quite interesting:

Originally posted by RCmodeler
From: Jms at B5 ([email protected])
Subject: Re: CRUSADE was about Earth & Shadow minions & Technomages!
View: Complete Thread (10 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv
Date: 2004-03-16 22:05:12 PST

"We'd like to have one of the characters include a sexual explorer, so when they make contact with a new race, his or her job is to go and have sex with them."

[...]

jms

([email protected])
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
Post a follow-up to this message

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Why not create this character and let him [hmm, that's an interesting way of NOT doing what the execs wanted and still follow orders] her be in a few, like 2, episodes and then go to the planet where [that mantis guy who used to live in Downbelow during season one] lives. Considering the mantis mating habits, I guess after a sexual encounter with a mantis, a funeral scene would be appropriate...

/IaS

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