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  • #1

    A Spider in the Web

    Hi all!

    This is my first post to this forum, I'm a proper babylon 5 fan.

    Any how I was watching "A Spider in the Web" series 2. I have a question I was hoping somebody could answer: At the end of the episode when the computer is talking to the evil psy-cop (13) the conversation goes somat like this:

    'control does not belive so'
    'belive is not enough, he is to follow up until he is certain, 13 out'

    so the question is who is 'he'?

    Ive only got upto series 3 on dvd and I never really caught many episodes when they were being broadcast on tv.

    also do any b5 actors ever post messages on here?

    Well adios

    Mr Brine
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Welcome to the forum!

    There aren't any B5 actors who post here that I know of, although they may lurk here.

    As for 13, unfortunately, shortly after this episode came out, they found out there was a video game by the same name and the whole concept was dropped. Whoever "he" may have been, we'll probably never know.

    Anyone else heard anything?
    "Jan Schroeder is insane" - J. Michael Straczynski, March 2008

    The Station: A Babylon 5 Podcast

    Comment

    • #3
      "He" would be the Control referred to in the previous sentence. As for exactly who that is... it's never directly made clear, but most assume it was the alter-ego Talia.

      As Far As I Know, no one from B5 - actors writers or producers - posts or reads here. Unless the actors have an active online presence I'm not aware of, that's not likely to change - JMS himself pretty much stays confined to the Usenet group that this site monitors. Not to mention these forums only seem to have picked up steam just lately.
      Radhil Trebors
      Persona Under Construction

      Comment

      • #4
        Originally posted by OmahaStar
        As for 13, unfortunately, shortly after this episode came out, they found out there was a video game by the same name and the whole concept was dropped. Whoever "he" may have been, we'll probably never know.

        Anyone else heard anything?
        That's pretty much what I remember. Though...I think JMS may have said something about the organization changing names to maintain secrecy.

        There was also some speculation about that bureau being responsible for ...

        Wait a minute.... Mr Brine, are you a new fan or have you seen the entire series before? I don't want to give you spoilers by accident.

        And welcome from here, too.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

        Comment

        • #5
          "Control" in this episode would seem to simply be the agent on Babylon 5 who was overseeing Horn's mission. There isn't any reason to believe that "his" role would be reprised (and given that he ordered Horn to take out Talia, the idea that she was "control" makes little sense to me, even under her... unusual circumstances). The Bureau 13 stuff would have been reprised in another form in Crusade.

          And another welcome from me, Mr. B.
          I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

          Comment

          • #6
            Thanks for the greetings and info.

            I find it hard to believe that talia alter ego is 'he'. Although I did have one after thourght: Could it be Mr Morton? as in one episode where earthforce send a guy to investigate the film of the shadow ship in hyperspace (filmed by keffer b4 he is killed), mr morton is in geniver chatting with some woman, directly after the guy exits the room (sorry I cant be more specific, but I think its early series 3)

            Message to Jan: I aint seen past the end of series 3. Series 4 is out in the uk on the 16 April 2004. Boy am I looking forward, I cant wait to find out if Sheridon is dead and what happened to Mr Gariboldy!!

            Any one know if 'Third Space' is coming out on DVD as this is one cool film, almost as good as, if not on par with 'In the Beginning'

            Has any one seen 'The Gathering' I bourght it and it had this proper cheesy rock soundtrack, although reviews suggest the soundtrack has been redubbed. Is it possible to get 'The Gathering' with the original soundtrack. As one of the best things about B5 is the soundtrack, it kicks ass!!

            Thanks

            Mr Brine

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by mr brine
              I find it hard to believe that talia alter ego is 'he'. Although I did have one after thourght: Could it be Mr Morton? as in one episode where earthforce send a guy to investigate the film of the shadow ship in hyperspace (filmed by keffer b4 he is killed), mr morton is in geniver chatting with some woman, directly after the guy exits the room (sorry I cant be more specific, but I think its early series 3)
              I found a post from JMS about 'Control' which even tells who it was originally supposed to be:

              Easy. Takashima would have been the one to be Control. A Psi
              Corps plant. (Her background on Mars would've been the perfect time
              for it to have happened.) When Laurel went away, I took that one
              thread and passed it along to Talia, setting it up as early as the very
              first episode, when Talia and Ivanova first meet, and later reluctantly
              have a drink.

              At one point, Ivanova says to Talia, referencing Ivanova's
              mother, "You're as much of a victim as she was." To which Talia
              replies, "I don't feel like a victim." And, of course, that's exactly
              what she was, though she didn't know it yet. Ivanova's analysis was
              100% correct.
              Message to Jan: I aint seen past the end of series 3. Series 4 is out in the uk on the 16 April 2004. Boy am I looking forward, I cant wait to find out if Sheridon is dead and what happened to Mr Gariboldy!!
              Okay, thanks. I didn't know if you knew about Talia or not and don't want to ruin any surprises.

              BTW, since I see that you like Chris Franke's music, you'll *love* the new music he did for the S4 DVDs!

              Any one know if 'Third Space' is coming out on DVD as this is one cool film, almost as good as, if not on par with 'In the Beginning'
              The word we have from JMS is that the movies *will* be coming out after Crusade. We don't have any dates so far.

              Has any one seen 'The Gathering' I bourght it and it had this proper cheesy rock soundtrack, although reviews suggest the soundtrack has been redubbed. Is it possible to get 'The Gathering' with the original soundtrack. As one of the best things about B5 is the soundtrack, it kicks ass!!
              Actually, you've got something that quite a number of people want badly for the sake of completeness. The one you have IS the original soundtack by... I think Stewart Copeland.

              I read recently that the early UK DVDs of The Gathering were made with the original edit/music in error. Later ones have the Christopher Franke music. You may want to sell the one you've got on Ebay and specify that you've verified that it's got the Copeland music. Or keep it so it gets really valuable.<g>

              Jan
              "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

              Comment

              • #8
                <<That's pretty much what I remember. Though...I think JMS may have said something about the organization changing names to maintain secrecy.

                There was also some speculation about that bureau being responsible for ...>>

                I believe it was an RPG game. Also interesting...Star Trek's version of a crooked secret organization was Section 31...13 backwards.
                Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by mr brine

                  I find it hard to believe that talia alter ego is 'he'.
                  Covert agents are *always* returned to as "he" to not give away sex. JMS has made mention of this as an element most people aren't aware of that he used to make Talia seem even less suspect.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Remember the THIS "Control" only appears once, in a non-JMS script, and so I think it is not the one JMS refers to in relation to Laurel/Talia.

                    "Control" is just a cool word that different writers used in different contexts in different scripts, IMO, and I think we would be going to far to assert that the "Control" that ordered Talia's death in SitW was the same as the "Control" in Divided Loyalties.
                    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      JMS's comment is an answer to a question someone specifically asked about the Control introduced in this episode.

                      Remember that while JMS did not write all of the Season 1 and 2 episodes, he did edit all of them *quite* heavily, as well as almost always adding in arc elements he wanted to introduce. Hell occasionally he'd write an entire B story for an episode.

                      Going off of authorship of a script is a bad judge, as JMS has had heavy influence in all of the episodes that aired.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        <<Going off of authorship of a script is a bad judge, as JMS has had heavy influence in all of the episodes that aired.>>

                        Off topic here...every time I read yours posts, I hear them in my mind in the voice of Daniel Stern. I can't help it. Kevin reminds me and Kevin Arnold. And Kevin Arnold reminds me of Stern's narrator work on The Wonder Years.
                        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          LOL! Well... I can't say I sound anything like Daniel Stern, but I was always a Wonder Years fan so I guess I'll take it as a compliment of such

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kevin
                            JMS's comment is an answer to a question someone specifically asked about the Control introduced in this episode.
                            Are you sure? It sounds to me from the context (and the time he is writing, which is early 1996, or about 6 months after DL but more than a year after SitW.

                            Remember that while JMS did not write all of the Season 1 and 2 episodes, he did edit all of them *quite* heavily, as well as almost always adding in arc elements he wanted to introduce. Hell occasionally he'd write an entire B story for an episode.

                            Going off of authorship of a script is a bad judge, as JMS has had heavy influence in all of the episodes that aired.
                            But since the "control" entity wasn't arc-related, I see no reason to believe that JMS would have interfered with it.

                            *Spoiler warning*







                            We know that:
                            1. JMS's control in DL cannot act while Talia is awake.
                            2. LGD's control was active in the middle of the day.
                            3. LGD's control ordered the murder of Talia
                            4. JMS's control was IN Talia and would die with her.
                            5. JMS's control was programmed to defend itself and preserve Talia, and so would be unable to order its own destruction.

                            We further can reason that the "control" as alter-Talia would be a very poor choice to coordinate Abel Horn's mission, as the availability of Abel's Control would be dictated by the sleep-wake cycles of talia, over which Bu13 had no control.

                            So, other than the coincidental use by two writers of the same word, I see no reason to believe that the two concepts have any relationship.
                            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              They don't.

                              - The episode "Spider in the Web" is a plot which JMS introduced... and then dropped. He said so himself.

                              - Talia was never intended to disappear. JMS had originally planned to keep her the whole series... but then the actress quit and JMS was forced to remove Talia.


                              So we have two unrelated plots: One that was dropped; One that was introduced purely because of actor resignation.

                              Comment

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