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One thing that has bothered me in Season 5

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  • One thing that has bothered me in Season 5

    Bester said he had programmed Garabaldi with Issac Assimov's first law of robotics.

    1) A robot may not harm a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

    or Garabaldi may not harm Bester, or through inaction, allow bester to be harmed.

    But how could Garabaldi make a deal with Leta in order to get the block removed. He should have been unable to make this deal knowing that it would lead to Bester being harmed. This is a direct act working toward future violance against Bester.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Phil Harmonic

    But how could Garibaldi make a deal with Leta in order to get the block removed. He should have been unable to make this deal knowing that it would lead to Bester being harmed. This is a direct act working toward future violence against Bester.
    My guess
    Well, I think that scene needs to be looked at from another perspective (or just watched again)à Garibaldi asked Lyta to remove the modified Asimov Bester put on him (and if memory serves me). Lyta in turned offered to remove the Asimov providing he set up accounts and support for her peopleà

    Now the question is ôDid Garibaldi follow through?ö or did just give enough to gain LytaÆs trust, or just let her continue to talk in bad guy/villain fashion (tipping her hand) knowing that this information could be use to warn Bester (again) of plans against the telepaths.

    Funny thing is since she is a telepath does this kind of over-rides the Asimov?
    Is the Asimov for all telepaths or only for Bester? Bester is pro-telepath so I would think it applies to all telepathsà

    Any way too many possibilitiesà I take it as it is, lol. She could have removed it or modified it for her own purposes.
    "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
      But how could Garabaldi make a deal with Leta in order to get the block removed. He should have been unable to make this deal knowing that it would lead to Bester being harmed. This is a direct act working toward future violance against Bester.
      But then, so was Garibaldi going to Bester's quarters and drawing his PPG and yet he was able to do that. I think that the actual action (ie; pulling the trigger) or inaction (ie; not yelling if somebody's about to shoot Bester) is the key, not the planning or preliminary steps leading up to it.

      IMO, YMMV etc.

      Jan
      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

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      • #4
        Bester never really elaborated too well on the Asimov laws. I always read that scene as that kind of action block - blocking the act of harm - was simply called an Asimov, after the robot law, rather than the actual law being programmed into the mind. The Asimov laws have millions of little implications, all borne forth in his stories, and I doubt Bester would have wasted the effort to reprogram Garibaldi - again - in so deep a fashion.
        Radhil Trebors
        Persona Under Construction

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        • #5
          Excellent scene to bring into this discussion, Jan. I totally agree. There's a difference between specific action and plotting and intent. Garibaldi did intend to shoot Bester, but it was that last line of specifically bringing into existance the shooting itself that he could not cross. He got all the way to the quarters, with a loaded gun, and pointed it directly at Bester. The problem came in the pulling of the trigger, as once the trigger was pulled would be when the harm would come to Bester. Garibaldi gathering money for Lyta's cause was no different than getting into Bester's quarters or loading the gun, as it no more guaranteed harm to Bester as did pointing the gun.

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          • #6
            Action or inaction would imply that he can't shoot Bester or happily watch him dangle over a cliff (or wander into a faulty airlock). To compute too many steps back would be to create a virtual Rube Goldgberg scenario. Since Garibaldi's actions didn't represent a clear danger to Bester, the mental block was never triggered.

            SPOILERS (highlight to read spoilers for short story and novels):
            As promised, Lyta did return in 2263 and remove Garibaldi's block in the Gregory J. Keyes short story "The Nautilus Coil". After that, he began using the resources of Edgar's Industries to track down Bester under the codname "Big Dog" in the unfilmed Crusade episode "Value Judgments" Apparently Garibaldi never caught up with Bester prior to the Telepath War and their grudge remained unsettled until around 2279 (?) when Garibaldi finally apprehended him - and didn't kill him. (Telepath Trilogy, Book III, Bester's Fate - Gregory J. Keyes)
            Last edited by B5_Obsessed; 08-18-2006, 08:32 PM.
            Only a fool fights in a burning house.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jan
              But then, so was Garibaldi going to Bester's quarters and drawing his PPG and yet he was able to do that.
              Originally posted by vacantlook
              There's a difference between specific action and plotting and intent. Garibaldi did intend to shoot Bester, but it was that last line of specifically bringing into existence the shooting itself that he could not cross.
              Kewl, so I assume the mental block (lol) has to be triggered at the first sign of danger to Bester for Garibaldi to respond in his defense. Plus plotting the Telepath War is completely different than sending/telling Lyta directly to kill Bester...
              "The world is a dangerous place---not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it" --Albert Einstein

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              • #8
                Thanks for the invisotext, Jan. Didn't know we could do that. Bit of a luddite myself.
                Only a fool fights in a burning house.

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                • #9
                  There's also Bester's ego to consider. He wouldn't bother to inhibit Garibaldi from asking another teep to remove the block because he didn't believe any other teep could remove a block he had placed. (He knew the Vorlons had altered Lyta, but he had no real idea how powerful she was.)

                  Regards,

                  Joe
                  Joseph DeMartino
                  Sigh Corps
                  Pat Tallman Division

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
                    There's also Bester's ego to consider. He wouldn't bother to inhibit Garibaldi from asking another teep to remove the block because he didn't believe any other teep could remove a block he had placed. (He knew the Vorlons had altered Lyta, but he had no real idea how powerful she was.)
                    And, indeed, his ego probably made him enjoy the thought of Garibaldi going through all the preliminary stages necessary to harm Bester and only being stopped when he tried to "pull the trigger." Bester was not a nice guy, and the thought of frustrating Garibaldi only at the last moment probably ticked him pink.
                    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                    • #11
                      in all programmings are errors , so had Besters programming

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