How to start my GF out on B5

[Joseph DeMartino]

Disagree. The whole impact of so many things (like Delenn's forced confession to Lennier in Atonement that she had cast the deciding vote that started the viciousness of the Earth-Minbari War) would be missed if you knew the facts already by watching ItB.

Passing Through Gethsemane works, I tells ya!

The impact wouldn't be lost, it would be different. The episode plays one way when nobody knows what Delenn did and we gradually find out. But it plays very well indeed when we gradually realize what The Dreaming is pushing her to and we shared her anxiety about what she was going to have to tell Lennier what she had done - and we'd feel for Lennier as well, knowing what was coming next. One experience is not more "valid" or more valuable than the other. (Besides, you're assuming that a person who watches ItB will remember all these details months later when they get around to S4.)

In any case, I'm sorry Smile learned the hard way how badly The Gathering sucked as an intro to the series. Too bad there wasn't someone to warn him off, like on a message board or something.

If you're not going to go wth ItB (which I still think is the only story that really conveys the epic scope of the series while ending with intriguing hints and mysteries of its own) pick one of the really good episodes suggested above and try it again. She's your girlfriend, for Pete's sake. You're asking for an hour of her time to check out something she might really like. At worst she'll be bored. I'm sure she's survived being bored for an hour in your presence before.

Regards,

Joe

[Jan]

Now, Joe...can we blame Smile for getting his first script book and wanting to fire up the DVD player right away to see the differences between it and the televised version for himself? It's just bad luck that his girlfriend was there at the time.

Jan

[Joseph DeMartino]

How about Believers as a starter? It's first season, so if they do decide that this B5 thing is neat and they want to commit to watching more in order, first season B5 will already be nice and familiar; it's not part of any of the big arc stories and very nicely stands alone; and is (IMO) one of the more powerful stories in early B5.

I agree, although I think some of the story is creaky, and I think the father's performance is just "off" somehow. But this is definitely one of the episodes that told me early on that this was not "your father's SF show". On any of the Trek shows the commander would have convinced the father (or more likely the mother) to do the "right" thing and save the kid and there would have been a happy ending. Hell most TV series would have found a way to do that. B5 wasn't interested in easy answers, and the way the issue was presented everyone was right from his or her own point of view. The show didn't summarily dismiss the parents' beliefs or their right to adhere to them. And it foreshadowed "Confessions and Lamentations" when JMS would really show us what he thought of the "cosmic reset" button.

In fairness I should note that fan opinion is pretty much split on this one. People who like it really like. People who don't (and there are many) hate it. That's why I hesitate to recommend it as an intro, because I have no way of knowing which way a given viewer is going feel. I've seen posts from people who are livid the Sinclair didn't just order the surgery and override the "obviously wrong" beliefs of the parents. They don't even look at the civil-liberties side of the argument or the limits of B5's jurisdiction over aliens. People who are personally hostile to religion in the here-and-now tend especially to hate this episode because they can't stand sitting through it an listening to the "crap" the parents spew for an hour. Conversely a lot of very religious people don't like sitting through the episode because they think the parents are an exageration and a mockery of all religious belief.

I think it is a terrific episode. YMMV. And I'd be careful showing it as an introduction to the series unless I knew the person I was showing it to well enough to guess their reaction to the subject matter.

Regards,

Joe

[Ulkosh]

The impact wouldn't be lost, it would be different. The episode plays one way when nobody knows what Delenn did and we gradually find out. But it plays very well indeed when we gradually realize what The Dreaming is pushing her to and we shared her anxiety about what she was going to have to tell Lennier what she had done - and we'd feel for Lennier as well, knowing what was coming next. One experience is not more "valid" or more valuable than the other. (Besides, you're assuming that a person who watches ItB will remember all these details months later when they get around to S4.)

In any case, I'm sorry Smile learned the hard way how badly The Gathering sucked as an intro to the series. Too bad there wasn't someone to warn him off, like on a message board or something.

If you're not going to go wth ItB (which I still think is the only story that really conveys the epic scope of the series while ending with intriguing hints and mysteries of its own) pick one of the really good episodes suggested above and try it again. She's your girlfriend, for Pete's sake. You're asking for an hour of her time to check out something she might really like. At worst she'll be bored. I'm sure she's survived being bored for an hour in your presence before.

Regards,

Joe

Now heres something we agree on absolutely.

I disagree with Grumbler that the effect of Atonement is LOST, and believe rather that it is just CHANGED.
That she SEEMS to be pushed towards something we know she has buried herself, but in fact it is something else.
I don't think it needs to be entirely new.

Also based on successfully introducing 3 people to the series with ItB i can tell you, they do indeed forget some elements. They'd all forgotten by the time of Revelations, that they'd seen Delenn with hair for example.

They have no problem with And the Sky Full of Stars or Soul Hunter, instead hoping Sinclair finds out what we the viewers may already know.



Is the series any the worse for showing a burning Centauri Prime in War Without End?
Is it any worse for knowing Londo & G'Kar will kill each other?
No... it's just different.


I also agree with Joe, that Confessions and Lamentations, is a possibility, good call. Immensely emotionally affecting, and as has already been stated, No Cosmic Reset switch here.


Also another possibility could be Chrysalis..
It's immensely exciting
It shows there's politicaly upheaval involving Earth
It strongly features both Sinclair and Garibaldi
It shows the bizarre situation with Delenn (who wouldn't know what was going to happen there?)
It has Kosh being very mysterious
AND
It has Morden, Londo and G'Kar setting up the situation with the Shadow War


If you feel ItB gives away too much - then I'd say go for C&L or Chrysalis



Early Episodes to avoid would probably be:
* Midnight on the Firing Line (i've heard complaints this is too confusing) See also Babylon Squared
* Believers - as previously stated, i've heard people complain about Sinclairs decision/the 'crap' spoken by the parents etc
* Mind War - has been called a poor man's Akira
* Infection - skid row in every way
*Born to the Purple - i've heard this called boring too (see also Survivors, Grail, TKO, War Prayer, By Any Means Necessary and A Voice in the Wilderness)
* The Gathering - certainly is a dreadful introduction (though interesting on a later viewing and a worthwhile part of the canon) - in some ways its a wonder it didn't sink the programme straight away, it certainly didn't make me feel i HAD to come back and watch more.


In fact that and the first half of Season 1 put me off until i found theseries again years later with The Long Twilight Struggle.


Cheers,
Another Joe

[Susitcha]

For someone interested in people... How about the one where Ivannovah sits Shivah (sp) for her father? It is a very deep and emotional piece and it is not straight forward how she deals with her grief. Sorry I can't remeber which episode, but it is an early one. I am sure someone will know.

It's TKO

[Shabaz]

I quite like the B-story to TKO, although I know people who didn't really like that either. The A-story is rather horrid though, and together with Infection, probably makes up the low points of first season B5. IMO off course, although I believe the feeling about TKO's a-story is pretty universal, and the b-story doesn't really make up for it for most people. Although, like I said, I personally do quite like the b-story. You kind of have to see Susan's story build up over the season though, I'm not sure how well the b-story works on its own.

The only thing about the a-story that I thought was sort of nifty is that, when watching it in the Lurker's Guide preferred order, the 'watch your back' bits provide a nice bit of poignant foreshadowing to what happens with Garibaldi in Chrysalis. But that's a really small thing, and you only get that when you watch the season in its entirety, and don't follow the broadcast/DVD order of the episodes.

[Susitcha]

True, I was just suggesting going by what his girlfriends interests were and the fact that it is an early non spoiler episode. It is really hard when you do not know the person.

[NotKosh]

Quit mincing around

Hit 'em with Severed Dreams, then they will be waiting to find out
1) How they got to that point.
2) How it ends.

[Joseph DeMartino]

Having just watched it again, to answer a question raised on another board, I'd like to vote a second time (along with Shabaz) for "Signs and Portents". It is a mostly self-contained episode, early enough in S1 not to include huge spoilers, lets you get a sense of most of the characters, has a classic Londo/G'Kar scene and shows intriguiging flashes of the larger arc and the future. The perfect one-episode teaser-trailer. Doesn't give away too much, whets the appetite for more.

Regards,

Joe

[cornholio1980]

What about "Midnight on the firing line"? It's a rather straightforward episode that has fun, drama and action. It hints at some larger issues and thus creates interest for the show, and as the 1st episode of S1, it's not giving anything away.

Then again, I have to say that I don't understand your girlfriends opinion on "The Gathering". You described her as intellectual, as frequent reader, so she should be one of the first that appreciate the slow buildup and that it concentrates on the characters and the plot, and not the action. I for one never understood the animosity of some B5-fans concerning the pilot. It is a good introduction into the universe that tells you the rules and the basic facts, you get to know the people, and in the end, with the mentioning of Sinclairs missing 24 hours, you get the first hook of the series. It is a slowly and clever build up mystery, and after this one sentence by the minbari assassin I just had to watch the series in order to know what that was all about.

Anyway, I would give "The Gathering" 9 out of 10 stars - in the JMS-recut-version, of course .

[Dr Maturin]

Well, I think I have a new girlfriend now and she pretty much likes everything that I do. She has the same philosophy as I do when it comes to entertainment: as long as it's good, watch it. My DVD collection includes sci-fi, cop dramas, night soaps, sitcoms, etc. That being said, I still haven't really revealed how MUCH sci-fi I own. But I'm sure she'll love it all.

[Joseph DeMartino]

Well, I think I have a new girlfriend now...

That, of course, was the other solution to your problem, but I was hesitant to mention it.

Let that be a lesson to all you single types out there: Forget political affiliation, religion, sexual chemistry, attitude towards marriage, desire or lack thereof for children, you have to screen prospective mates based on TV shows. You'll spend far more time watching TV together than you will having sex, engaging in religious activities or discussing politics, and you have kids you'll want to agree on which shows they should be watching when you plant the little rugrats in front of the set so you can get a couple of hours of peace and quiet. (And maybe a rare sexual encounter.)

Hint: On a first date you should always say something like, "She looks a little like Delenn" or "You sound like a Vorlon". If you get a blank stare fake an aneurysm, call for the check and get the hell out of dodge. If you get an surprised look followed by an enthusiastic smile, marry whoever it is on the spot. I'm told that in really expensive restaurants the chef can marry people, just like the captain of a ship. (OK, this may only be true in parts of Manhattan and Beverly Hills.)

This message brought to you as a public service by the Fans of Babylon 5

Regards,

Joe

[Dr Maturin]

Well, instead of paying for one of those silly dating sites, I used MySpace's search feature to find a prospective mate. Using each and every available field, I entered my parameters and within two months I found what I was looking for. I don't like being single...I need a woman to take care of me.

But you're right, JDM...TV is very important. I know that we agree on several shows, so that's a start.

I think I'll try BSG with her first before B5.

[SmileOfTheShadow]

You'll spend far more time watching TV together than you will having sex

Speak for yourself.


Jon

[SmileOfTheShadow]

Well, instead of paying for one of those silly dating sites, I used MySpace's search feature to find a prospective mate. Using each and every available field, I entered my parameters and within two months I found what I was looking for. I don't like being single...I need a woman to take care of me.

But you're right, JDM...TV is very important. I know that we agree on several shows, so that's a start.

I think I'll try BSG with her first before B5.

Wow, you actually met someone on myspace that worked out? Congrats! That's a really cool thing, especially to find someone who is willing to watch these shows. I think BSG is a little easier to get people to watch because it's so fast paced from the get go..where as B5 unfolds and requires investment into the characters.

The babylon project was my last, best hope to get my girlfriend into good tv....it failed.