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**OmahaStar** · 07-16-2006, 12:15 PM

1 - He's old. Really really really old.

2 - The concept of buying on credit. It's a foreign concept.

3 - Well of course. A day on Earth isn't even the same as a day on Mars. Time varies.

4 - Something like that. Lorien didn't stop time, but he did slow it down considerably. Everything that happened between them took maybe a second or two.

5 - Well someone's got to do it, right? Otherwise he's just going to stay there waiting. And really, hasn't he waited long enough? He is, after all, the oldest being. He's been around since the dawn of time. Earlier, maybe. And that ham sandwich isn't going to last forever.

**Jan** · 07-17-2006, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by getill

Hi.
I have a few questions about Babylon 5.
I hope someone out there can answer them for me.

Hi Ed, and welcome. Remember that a lot of 'Kosh-isms' are very open to interpretation and sometimes (IMO) just for the sake of sounding mysterious. Still...

1) Kosh says several times that he "has always been here". He even said the same to Sheridan. What does that mean?

Several times? I only remember the once. As for meaning, the only thing that really fits is that Vorlons are extremely long lived.

2) Several times in the serious it has been said that "they/you do not understand". When Sheridan was on Z'Ha'Dum with Lorien he said the Shadows "don't understand anymore, they did but that was a million years ago". At Corianas 6, Lorien told the Vorlons and the Shadows that the younger races "have learned to understand". Are all of these "understandings" referring to the same thing? What is it that the younger races and come to understand?

I think it's just a matter of them growing, rather than understanding any one thing. The Shadows and Vorlons used to understand that their purpose was to help the younger races. At Coriana, the younger races had learned to understand that they didn't need the older races anymore. Even at the end, Sheridan said that there was so much he still didn't understand and Lorien replied that it was "As it should be." So I think it's just a matter of learning and growing and figuring things out.

3) Anna Sheridan was right when she said that time works differently on Z'Ha'Dum? Even Lorien alluded to that fact.

I figured it was just a way of covering up the fact that she'd been put into one of the Shadow ships and so couldn't really account for the years she'd been missing.

4) What does "between the moments" mean? Did all of that take place in Sheridan's head?

As Lorien would say, almost certainly. Remember, too, that moments are a recurring theme of the show. That was the lesson Dr. Franklin had to learn - to appreciate the moments.

5) Why was it necessary for someone to go to Z'Ha'Dum and meet Lorien?

That's the way things happen in most mythologies, the searcher has to go through a trial to find the teacher.

Of course there may be whole other schools of thought about all of these.

Jan

**vacantlook** · 07-17-2006, 02:32 PM

For the "always been here" comment, I thought jms in one of the scriptbooks said that that came from the same Vorlon perspective that led Kosh through the dream to tell Sheridan the whole "man in-between" comment: that Vorlons can see things outside of linear time and see a person at every point in their life.

**SLerman** · 07-17-2006, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by vacantlook

For the "always been here" comment, I thought jms in one of the scriptbooks said that that came from the same Vorlon perspective that led Kosh through the dream to tell Sheridan the whole "man in-between" comment: that Vorlons can see things outside of linear time and see a person at every point in their life.

Marcus actually hints at that theory on-screen when he connects Kosh to Merlin, who he said could predict the future because Merlin aged backwards.

**Vyse** · 07-18-2006, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by SLerman

Marcus actually hints at that theory on-screen when he connects Kosh to Merlin, who he said could predict the future because Merlin aged backwards.

Of course that was some foreshadowing for Sinclair also.

**Shadow-Sentient** · 07-18-2006, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by getill

1) Kosh says several times that he "has always been here". He even said the same to Sheridan. What does that mean?

I have always taken this statement to be more matter of physics. Since the Vorlons are beings of light/energy and energy can neither be created or destroyed ... logically he could be saying that he has always been here in one form or another. Perhaps Sheridan's energy has always been important and at the center of 'great moments' throughout history.

The human soul is said to be an energy that continues on after death (and more importantly exists before we are born) this might also track. When you consider that Sheridan does in fact go on after his death and that a minor theme of this show is the continuance of energy past mere life ... this makes some sense.

Another option is that Sheridan was a Nexus. Jason on Z'Ha'Dum tells Sheridan that if they killed him, someone else would just spring up in his place. It is possible that Kosh was 'generally' speaking in the terms of there always existing 'that being' that acts as a Nexus. In the past it would have been Sinclair.

The mere fact that the Vorlons spoke in riddle could lead one to various conclusions. I think what's important is what you get from it rather than what it truly means.

**Shr'eshhhhhh** · 07-19-2006, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Shadow-Sentient

I have always taken this statement to be more matter of physics. Since the Vorlons are beings of light/energy and energy can neither be created or destroyed ... logically he could be saying that he has always been here in one form or another. Perhaps Sheridan's energy has always been important and at the center of 'great moments' throughout history.

JMS has clearly stated that the Vorlons have physical bodies, crystaline in nature.

Seeing as Justin is in charge of the humans on Za'ha'dum perhaps Anna was telling the truth about time working differently there, they are running Justin Time....(somebody shut up that cricket oh look a tumbleweed)

**getill** · 07-19-2006, 03:38 PM

Thanks

Thanks to all of you for your responses.
I guess everything can be taken from several and personal point of views.

One thing for sure about Babylon 5, the saying "no one here is exactly what he or she seems" is so correct.

**grumbler** · 07-23-2006, 10:13 AM

My take on "I have always been here" is that the Vorlons had, in the past, "adjusted" humans to repond favorably to them, and perhaps also to want what the Vorlons want them to want. In a sesne, "I have always been here" means, to me, that there has always been a little "Kosh voice" in the back of human minds (our concience, perhaps?). Kosh does note that Sheridan was unable to clearly hear him until Sheridan was on the Streib ship. Perhaps it took the reduction of Sheridan's problems to the immediate and basic to get him to drop all the thousand and one thoughts abut a thousand and one things that prevented him from hearing his "Kosh voice."

As regards "they understand," I think this refers to the cyclic nature of the universe. There is a time for everything, and a time for everything to change. What "they don't understand" (referring to the Vorlons and Shadows) is that their time has passed, their guardianship has become hurtful rather than beneficial, and that the younger races don't need them and cannot benefit from their wisom any more. What "they understand" regarding the younger races, and is the mirror-image of the First Ones' understandings; that they have gone as far as they can go listening to the First Ones, and that they need to seek their own destinies now.

I agree with Jan's answers to the last three questions.

**getill** · 08-09-2006, 10:03 AM

Thanks

Again, thanks to all of you for your responses.
I appreciate them.

Ed

**AmyG** · 08-09-2006, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by Jan

That's the way things happen in most mythologies, the searcher has to go through a trial to find the teacher.

From my own mythological perspective, I saw what Sheridan underwent at Z'ha'dum as part the classic Campbellian "hero's journey," what with the whole crossing over the threshold and then returning from death thing. It was just like Jesus, or the classic shaman's burial and resurrection after three days. Hero goes "underground" (metaphor for death), hero comes out, better, stronger, faster.

**NotSoWize** · 08-09-2006, 07:01 PM

I always figured that Kosh was meaning that the Vorlons had been around since humans gained intelligence (at least some of them!)

That is, Vorlons have been influencing humanity since humanity's beginning.

Certainly the lack of "black and white" answers to many of the issues raised on Babylon 5 is one of the main attractions of the series to many of us.

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