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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by SLerman
    ....but would still be called by their job title instead of their rank.
    Except that no one gets called "Admiral" even in circumstances where such titles might be assumed to apply, like Proxima, like Mars, like "the Earth Destroyer Advanced Division..."

    I dunno why everyone wants to hang on to a rank when it is clear that JMS has abandoned it.

    "'No Admirals:' it's not just a lifestyle choice."

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  • SLerman
    replied
    "Admiral" may also be more of a job (or position, or assignment, whichever term you prefer) than a rank. For example, Garibaldi is almost always referred to as Chief of Security, and only referred to by his rank of Chief Warrant Officer once or twice in the series. An admiral might be the person in charge of the fleet in a certain sector, so you'd have an Earth admiral, a Proxima admiral, maybe a Mars/Io admiral if they aren't combined with Earth itself, etc. Each admiral would have the official rank of General, but would still be called by their job title instead of their rank.

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Natxomann
    All of this does not prevent the fact that before the Minbari war (the time during which Sinclair was at the beginning of his career , and quickly rising through the ranks) , the senior (flag?) officers in the fleet would have been denominated as admirals instead of generals , and that after the massive beating suffered by the Earth military , certain reforms were made to increase the efficiency of Earthforce . One of such reforms could have been the unification of all senior ranks to reduce internal friction , being all flag officers from then on , ranked as generals .
    Just my 0.02 Euro
    Except that we actually see the leaders of the EA in In the Beginning and they are uniformly (ha! ) generals, with nary an admiral in the bunch.

    We never, ever, actually hear of or see an admiral except in the early scripts and memos and web postings. The concept gets dropped as a bad idea. There is no reason to try to explain that rank in canon terms further, IM(ns)HO.

    And yes, I know, this is not consistent with earlier postings of mine on the inviolability of JMS statements, but "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

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  • prometheous
    replied
    Not sure the land battles were minor but the minbari war is amass of contradictions for me (see previous thread)

    Right, admirals - a brain fart lets not hear any more bout it, even geniuses like JMS have bad days.

    I accept that Ryan is outranked by Sheridan but then, at the same time when your a bunch of renegades, who care about rank and besides, Sheridan was in command of a giant immobile space station with hundres of thousands of civilians whereas Ryan commanded a highly mobile very effective dreadnought/carrier...that might explain the slight deference towards him

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    [tongue in cheek mode]

    Or maybe it's just that this a fictional story set 250 years into the future and the military operates a subtly different ranking structure to the one that we use now.

    [/tongue in cheek mode]

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  • Andrew_Swallow
    replied
    Thinking about it Earth's forces were what was left after the Earth- Minbari War. This war was a space war with near total destruction of the spaceships but only minor land battles. Any admiral who joined the fighting would have been killed. The land based general and colonels would have survived. The end result being that most of the living Earthforce senior officers would from the land forces.

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  • Natxomann
    replied
    This is one of the oldest discussions amount B5 fans with a little of (real) military knowledge . And almost always , we all come (after a loooong debate) that in Earthforce during the show era , there were no longer admirals and generals , only generals , whether they were part of the fleet or the planetary forces , but very probably could have existed admirals just until a few years or decades before the series time .
    Think about it . We know that earthforce is an unified military organization , encompassing the space navy , the fleet troops (trained for boarding and orbital assault duties , and probably called marines due to tradition), as well as all sorts of planetary forces , that would encompass the traditional army , air force , and even a few "wet navy" naval forces (mainly submarines , I suppose) .
    We also know that Earthforce still uses a rank system (derived from the actual US military , supposedly because most of the personnel & funds of the original foundation of earthforce was "donated by the then existing US government) , with different denominations -probably for traditional reasons- , but senior grade officer (those above the Captain/colonel rank) are all generals , probably to prevent the age-old interservices frictions and rivalities
    that would create all sort of problems in peacetime , and could prove catastrophic in war .
    All of this does not prevent the fact that before the Minbari war (the time during which Sinclair was at the beginning of his career , and quickly rising through the ranks) , the senior (flag?) officers in the fleet would have been denominated as admirals instead of generals , and that after the massive beating suffered by the Earth military , certain reforms were made to increase the efficiency of Earthforce . One of such reforms could have been the unification of all senior ranks to reduce internal friction , being all flag officers from then on , ranked as generals .
    Just my 0.02 Euro

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Originally posted by SpanishFan
    I feel kinda cheated.
    As for the line in S1 about the admirals, I think it may have been a figure of speech (I know, I know, JMS screwed up for once, can happen to the best, I'm comig up with a justification after the fact but, you think it works?).
    Two lines, actually.

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  • SpanishFan
    replied
    Alas, that page is just full of misinformation and gapfilling.
    I feel kinda cheated.
    Ok, that's it, I'm removing the page from my bookmark (not that i visited it very often, anyway, but now I won't, ever).

    So Major is then a rank lower than Lt. Commander, but higher than Lieutenant, right?
    So it wold be:
    - General
    - Captain
    - Commander
    - Lt. Commander
    - Major
    - Lieutenant
    - Lieutenant junior

    Did I leave any rank out?

    As for the line in S1 about the admirals, I think it may have been a figure of speech (I know, I know, JMS screwed up for once, can happen to the best, I'm comig up with a justification after the fact but, you think it works?).

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Also, don't go too much by uniform colors. Sinclair's dress uniform was brown, so what color uniforms were differed by job and by the dress level they were in at the time. What is interesting to me is that Major Krantz used British-style rank "pips" while Ryan used B5-style O-4's bars.

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by SpanishFan
    Ok, I'm not sure how official this is, but it seems to gve a reaonable explanation for most of what's been raised here.
    Alas, that page is just full of misinformation and gapfilling. There is no "Earthforce Star Navy" in the show, just on that web page.

    It's been a long time since I last watched "severed dreams" (too long, now that I think about it;have to fix that ), but i got the impression that Ryan outranked Sheridan. However, the guy in charge of B4 (can't remember his name. And i'm trying hard. Krantz?) was also a Major, and he salutes Sinclair as his superior. So i think Ryan was a Two Star General (Major General, Major for short), and the B4 guy and Atumbe were Army majors (equivalent to Lt. Commander in EF). Hague was a Four Star General (Full General, General for short).
    Ryan was a major, not a major general. the script bears this out.

    As for the GROPOS and Marines, you think GroundPounder could be like 'jarheads'? a sort of unofficial name for the EF marines, maybe to distinguish themselves from the navy marines wich presumably still exist?
    I think Earthforce had a military component, which when based aboard ships was referred to as "Marines." There definately WERE Marines - the breeching pod that attacks B5 in Severed Dreams has "Marines" written on the side of it in red.

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  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    See my above conjecture that Hague was a Marine general -- a high one -- and he wore blue because the EFMC was a corps of the space force. Ryan would know space fleet tactics if he were in the space fleet, which he would be if he were a Marine major under Hague.
    But there is no "army" and "navy," there is just Earthforce. The "EFMC" was just the portion of Earthforce assigned to ships in a military as opposed to naval capacity. All Flag Officers shown are generals. I think JMS used "admiral" in the first season because he hadn't thought out the military rank structure yet (there was no need). He never used it thereafter, and we later see generals commanding the larger fleets, which would be an admiral's job if there were any admirals.

    Two brainfarts? Besides, the dialogue is there. We have to come up with an in story explanation.
    The dialogue is only there is season one. The memos use the same terminology in season 1, and then admirals never appear again. I had proposed in an earlier thread on this topic that maybe admirals were just the rank after captain, and we didn't see any of them because all of the flag officers we saw were too senior. Upon reflection, this does not make a lot of sense, because the guy commanding the six destroyers in the very crucial Proxima system was a captain when he should have been an admiral if junior flag officers were admirals. We also see a "Captain Thompson" in command of the "Advanced Destroyer Group" in "Between the Darkness and the Light" when logic says an admiral would have been used if they existed.

    More dialogue here. Like it or not, the song sung clearly said, "Earthforce Marine Corps."
    But all that means is that these people thought of themselves as "Marines" in their current assignment. We used to sing about being "US Navy Snipes" (Engineering Department personnel) on the USS Berkely but that does not mean thatthere was a seperate branch of the service called the "US Navy Snipes"!

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    Originally posted by SpanishFan
    Ok, I'm not sure how official this is, but it seems to gve a reaonable explanation for most of what's been raised here.

    It's been a long time since I last watched "severed dreams" (too long, now that I think about it;have to fix that ), but i got the impression that Ryan outranked Sheridan. However, the guy in charge of B4 (can't remember his name. And i'm trying hard. Krantz?) was also a Major, and he salutes Sinclair as his superior. So i think Ryan was a Two Star General (Major General, Major for short), and the B4 guy and Atumbe were Army majors (equivalent to Lt. Commander in EF). Hague was a Four Star General (Full General, General for short).
    You are wrong about Ryan.

    Originally posted by JMS
    Major Ryan was overstepping his rank.

    Except, of course, you now have an extraordinary situation in which the Major, through the death of his CO, was now the commanding officer of the Alexander. In ordinary circumstances, this would mean he'd be given a field promotion.

    Second, I don't recall any situation where the Major was "giving orders to a commander." The aide on the deck of the Alexander was a Lieutenant, as I recall. Also, if Hague indicated that he was to be given command as he died, that would likely be honored. Finally, yes, the Major was involved in the discussions of strategy, but in *every case* he presented Sheridan and Hiroshi with options, and because it was Sheridan's neck of the woods, it was left to Sheridan to give orders. He coordinated the defense, and was the only one speaking directly with the Agrippa.

    http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/054.html

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  • SLerman
    replied
    Also keep in mind that rank doesn't always translate to absolute authority. Even if a higher ranking officer is on board, the "man in charge" usually stays the "man in charge." When General Hague is on board B5, Sheridan is still in charge of the station because it's his command, not Hague's. When Sinclair is on B4, even though he outranks Major Krantz, it's still Krantz's command (he even says as much in dialogue). It would be the same when Major (if it's meant to be Major General) Ryan is on B5. The station is still under Sheridan's command, and he probably knows how best to defend the station better than Major Ryan would. If Major Ryan was just a normal Major (lower rank than Sheridan), Sheridan may still defer to him a bit just for the fact that he was Hague's second-in-command.

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  • SpanishFan
    replied
    Ok, I'm not sure how official this is, but it seems to gve a reaonable explanation for most of what's been raised here.

    It's been a long time since I last watched "severed dreams" (too long, now that I think about it;have to fix that ), but i got the impression that Ryan outranked Sheridan. However, the guy in charge of B4 (can't remember his name. And i'm trying hard. Krantz?) was also a Major, and he salutes Sinclair as his superior. So i think Ryan was a Two Star General (Major General, Major for short), and the B4 guy and Atumbe were Army majors (equivalent to Lt. Commander in EF). Hague was a Four Star General (Full General, General for short).

    As for the GROPOS and Marines, you think GroundPounder could be like 'jarheads'? a sort of unofficial name for the EF marines, maybe to distinguish themselves from the navy marines wich presumably still exist?

    As I said, I don't know if it is official, cannon, endorsed, or whatever you might wanna call it, but it seems to be consistent with the show. What do you think?

    Leave a comment:

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