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  • #16
    Originally posted by grumbler
    I think the answer to the "Major Ryan" question is actually pretty simple, when you think about it: he was the aide to General Hague, and so carried the appropriate "army-style" title to go with the "army-style" title of Hague. He clearly knew his naval tactics, and probably was "Lieutenant Comander Ryan" in his last assignment or his next one.
    See my above conjecture that Hague was a Marine general -- a high one -- and he wore blue because the EFMC was a corps of the space force. Ryan would know space fleet tactics if he were in the space fleet, which he would be if he were a Marine major under Hague.

    "Admiral" was a JMS brainfart and quickly abandoned.
    Two brainfarts? Besides, the dialogue is there. We have to come up with an in story explanation.

    In short, I think the difference between the "army style" ranks and the "navy style" ranks was in the assignment, and in a given paygrade officers were called by the appropriate title for that assignment.
    More dialogue here. Like it or not, the song sung clearly said, "Earthforce Marine Corps."
    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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    • #17
      Has anyone considered that the EF rank structure is different altogether from both army and navy? It seems likely that the EF spacefleet uses General as it's flag rank (Gen. Lefcourt in his blue uniform anyone??) also captain is an army as well as navy rank - one below major. It would seem therefore that major ryan could technically outrank shreidan, that this doesnt seem to be an issue can be put down to their renegade status in "severed dreams" and a case of following the guy with the plan. Remember all those EF units that sign on to sheridan's side despite the fact that many were probably captains when he was a cadet! (Capt Macdougan is a good example of this)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by prometheous
        Has anyone considered that the EF rank structure is different altogether from both army and navy? It seems likely that the EF spacefleet uses General as it's flag rank (Gen. Lefcourt in his blue uniform anyone??) also captain is an army as well as navy rank - one below major. It would seem therefore that major ryan could technically outrank shreidan, that this doesnt seem to be an issue can be put down to their renegade status in "severed dreams" and a case of following the guy with the plan. Remember all those EF units that sign on to sheridan's side despite the fact that many were probably captains when he was a cadet! (Capt Macdougan is a good example of this)
        I think Sheridan outranked Ryan. He obviously outranked Atumbe.
        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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        • #19
          Remember, even Sinclair as Commander and Ivanova as Lt. Commander must have outranked Major Atumbe, as he obviously has been 3rd in command during season1 then.
          And there are several Admirals in blue uniforms, Lefcourt, Smits, Hague, and only Frankling wearing the brown one. Maybe he is a General of the Earth Army and just assigned to the EF Marine Corps because of his battle experience. Or, all Marine Generals wear brown while the Fleet Generals where blue. Perhaps, in Earth Force, Admiral is a lower rank, one step under General. Admirals may command fleet groups while Generals may also be allowed to command mixed battle groups, like warships + Marines and so on.

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          • #20
            Sinclair would have outranked Atumbe, as commander is O-5 and major is O-4. Atumbe would have been a peer of Lt. Commander Ivanova at O-4, but that's fine. If she was designated the XO, then she was the XO and has authority over Atumbe.
            Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

            Comment


            • #21
              I dunno, but the person who posted this question seems to have a bit of a short fuse. Haven't seen him in this thread for days. What is it with people online nowadays?
              "En wat als tijd de helft van echtheid was, was alles dan dubbelsnel verbaal?"

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              • #22
                Ok, I'm not sure how official this is, but it seems to gve a reaonable explanation for most of what's been raised here.

                It's been a long time since I last watched "severed dreams" (too long, now that I think about it;have to fix that ), but i got the impression that Ryan outranked Sheridan. However, the guy in charge of B4 (can't remember his name. And i'm trying hard. Krantz?) was also a Major, and he salutes Sinclair as his superior. So i think Ryan was a Two Star General (Major General, Major for short), and the B4 guy and Atumbe were Army majors (equivalent to Lt. Commander in EF). Hague was a Four Star General (Full General, General for short).

                As for the GROPOS and Marines, you think GroundPounder could be like 'jarheads'? a sort of unofficial name for the EF marines, maybe to distinguish themselves from the navy marines wich presumably still exist?

                As I said, I don't know if it is official, cannon, endorsed, or whatever you might wanna call it, but it seems to be consistent with the show. What do you think?
                Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

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                • #23
                  Also keep in mind that rank doesn't always translate to absolute authority. Even if a higher ranking officer is on board, the "man in charge" usually stays the "man in charge." When General Hague is on board B5, Sheridan is still in charge of the station because it's his command, not Hague's. When Sinclair is on B4, even though he outranks Major Krantz, it's still Krantz's command (he even says as much in dialogue). It would be the same when Major (if it's meant to be Major General) Ryan is on B5. The station is still under Sheridan's command, and he probably knows how best to defend the station better than Major Ryan would. If Major Ryan was just a normal Major (lower rank than Sheridan), Sheridan may still defer to him a bit just for the fact that he was Hague's second-in-command.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SpanishFan
                    Ok, I'm not sure how official this is, but it seems to gve a reaonable explanation for most of what's been raised here.

                    It's been a long time since I last watched "severed dreams" (too long, now that I think about it;have to fix that ), but i got the impression that Ryan outranked Sheridan. However, the guy in charge of B4 (can't remember his name. And i'm trying hard. Krantz?) was also a Major, and he salutes Sinclair as his superior. So i think Ryan was a Two Star General (Major General, Major for short), and the B4 guy and Atumbe were Army majors (equivalent to Lt. Commander in EF). Hague was a Four Star General (Full General, General for short).
                    You are wrong about Ryan.

                    Originally posted by JMS
                    Major Ryan was overstepping his rank.

                    Except, of course, you now have an extraordinary situation in which the Major, through the death of his CO, was now the commanding officer of the Alexander. In ordinary circumstances, this would mean he'd be given a field promotion.

                    Second, I don't recall any situation where the Major was "giving orders to a commander." The aide on the deck of the Alexander was a Lieutenant, as I recall. Also, if Hague indicated that he was to be given command as he died, that would likely be honored. Finally, yes, the Major was involved in the discussions of strategy, but in *every case* he presented Sheridan and Hiroshi with options, and because it was Sheridan's neck of the woods, it was left to Sheridan to give orders. He coordinated the defense, and was the only one speaking directly with the Agrippa.

                    http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/054.html
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                      See my above conjecture that Hague was a Marine general -- a high one -- and he wore blue because the EFMC was a corps of the space force. Ryan would know space fleet tactics if he were in the space fleet, which he would be if he were a Marine major under Hague.
                      But there is no "army" and "navy," there is just Earthforce. The "EFMC" was just the portion of Earthforce assigned to ships in a military as opposed to naval capacity. All Flag Officers shown are generals. I think JMS used "admiral" in the first season because he hadn't thought out the military rank structure yet (there was no need). He never used it thereafter, and we later see generals commanding the larger fleets, which would be an admiral's job if there were any admirals.

                      Two brainfarts? Besides, the dialogue is there. We have to come up with an in story explanation.
                      The dialogue is only there is season one. The memos use the same terminology in season 1, and then admirals never appear again. I had proposed in an earlier thread on this topic that maybe admirals were just the rank after captain, and we didn't see any of them because all of the flag officers we saw were too senior. Upon reflection, this does not make a lot of sense, because the guy commanding the six destroyers in the very crucial Proxima system was a captain when he should have been an admiral if junior flag officers were admirals. We also see a "Captain Thompson" in command of the "Advanced Destroyer Group" in "Between the Darkness and the Light" when logic says an admiral would have been used if they existed.

                      More dialogue here. Like it or not, the song sung clearly said, "Earthforce Marine Corps."
                      But all that means is that these people thought of themselves as "Marines" in their current assignment. We used to sing about being "US Navy Snipes" (Engineering Department personnel) on the USS Berkely but that does not mean thatthere was a seperate branch of the service called the "US Navy Snipes"!
                      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SpanishFan
                        Ok, I'm not sure how official this is, but it seems to gve a reaonable explanation for most of what's been raised here.
                        Alas, that page is just full of misinformation and gapfilling. There is no "Earthforce Star Navy" in the show, just on that web page.

                        It's been a long time since I last watched "severed dreams" (too long, now that I think about it;have to fix that ), but i got the impression that Ryan outranked Sheridan. However, the guy in charge of B4 (can't remember his name. And i'm trying hard. Krantz?) was also a Major, and he salutes Sinclair as his superior. So i think Ryan was a Two Star General (Major General, Major for short), and the B4 guy and Atumbe were Army majors (equivalent to Lt. Commander in EF). Hague was a Four Star General (Full General, General for short).
                        Ryan was a major, not a major general. the script bears this out.

                        As for the GROPOS and Marines, you think GroundPounder could be like 'jarheads'? a sort of unofficial name for the EF marines, maybe to distinguish themselves from the navy marines wich presumably still exist?
                        I think Earthforce had a military component, which when based aboard ships was referred to as "Marines." There definately WERE Marines - the breeching pod that attacks B5 in Severed Dreams has "Marines" written on the side of it in red.
                        I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Also, don't go too much by uniform colors. Sinclair's dress uniform was brown, so what color uniforms were differed by job and by the dress level they were in at the time. What is interesting to me is that Major Krantz used British-style rank "pips" while Ryan used B5-style O-4's bars.
                          I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Alas, that page is just full of misinformation and gapfilling.
                            I feel kinda cheated.
                            Ok, that's it, I'm removing the page from my bookmark (not that i visited it very often, anyway, but now I won't, ever).

                            So Major is then a rank lower than Lt. Commander, but higher than Lieutenant, right?
                            So it wold be:
                            - General
                            - Captain
                            - Commander
                            - Lt. Commander
                            - Major
                            - Lieutenant
                            - Lieutenant junior

                            Did I leave any rank out?

                            As for the line in S1 about the admirals, I think it may have been a figure of speech (I know, I know, JMS screwed up for once, can happen to the best, I'm comig up with a justification after the fact but, you think it works?).
                            Bravery is simply apathy with delusions of grandeur (Emperor Mollari II)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SpanishFan
                              I feel kinda cheated.
                              As for the line in S1 about the admirals, I think it may have been a figure of speech (I know, I know, JMS screwed up for once, can happen to the best, I'm comig up with a justification after the fact but, you think it works?).
                              Two lines, actually.
                              Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This is one of the oldest discussions amount B5 fans with a little of (real) military knowledge . And almost always , we all come (after a loooong debate) that in Earthforce during the show era , there were no longer admirals and generals , only generals , whether they were part of the fleet or the planetary forces , but very probably could have existed admirals just until a few years or decades before the series time .
                                Think about it . We know that earthforce is an unified military organization , encompassing the space navy , the fleet troops (trained for boarding and orbital assault duties , and probably called marines due to tradition), as well as all sorts of planetary forces , that would encompass the traditional army , air force , and even a few "wet navy" naval forces (mainly submarines , I suppose) .
                                We also know that Earthforce still uses a rank system (derived from the actual US military , supposedly because most of the personnel & funds of the original foundation of earthforce was "donated by the then existing US government) , with different denominations -probably for traditional reasons- , but senior grade officer (those above the Captain/colonel rank) are all generals , probably to prevent the age-old interservices frictions and rivalities
                                that would create all sort of problems in peacetime , and could prove catastrophic in war .
                                All of this does not prevent the fact that before the Minbari war (the time during which Sinclair was at the beginning of his career , and quickly rising through the ranks) , the senior (flag?) officers in the fleet would have been denominated as admirals instead of generals , and that after the massive beating suffered by the Earth military , certain reforms were made to increase the efficiency of Earthforce . One of such reforms could have been the unification of all senior ranks to reduce internal friction , being all flag officers from then on , ranked as generals .
                                Just my 0.02 Euro

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