JMS acting out

[Night Marshal]

Well, I take back my statement that I thought JMS was acting out. I Have read his reponse to Mr. Strange. While I have a high option of Mongoose JMS has shown at least to me that they are not in the right on this issue. I'm sorry for causing striff if I have done so. when this started I feel like mongoose was getting a bump deal at this point i feel that they have not acting in a way that was lacking respect to babylon 5. Anyways not sure whats going to become of the books but I guess thats more between WB and mongoose than the rest of us.

[Shenny]

Will, if at the begining they made it clear that JMS was not involved in any way i would still have bought the book. Simply because i missed the B5 Universe.

Now i simply felt lied too...

[Jan]

Well, my concern is NOT canonicity, but quality. From many years of reading comics, some of the best stories have come from ignoring contradicting continuity, establishing something new that's an amalgamation of non-contradicting continuity.

Which, when it's freely acknowledged is being done, I have no problem with. Previous discussions of these books ended up with people declaring whether the books being canon mattered to them or not and pretty much died because it's one or the other and not likely that anybody will change anybody's mind.

In this discussion, the subject of the books came up again on the moderated newsgroup and JMS chimed in to reiterate that, while Mr. Sprange was claiming to want to 'wrap up' the Crusade storyline (in a post of his that I had quoted when answering a question about the novels), as far as JMS was concerned, anything they came up with couldn't be considered canon. It's not a matter of them contradicting canon, it's that they're (Mongoose) trying to put across that what they *decide* is the Crusade story really is, which many of us feel cannot be decided by anybody but JMS.

I've been on record since JMS's post back in Ocotber that the novels don't interest me because of the canon issue. That doesn't mean that I don't think Mongoose will do the best job they can, I'm just personally doubtful that they'll be any more than RPG tie-ins.

Mr. Sprange's statements on the podcasts has created an added complication to the discussion. Before that came to light, we'd had JMS saying that he'd refused to work with them for reasons that seemed sufficient to him on one side and Mr. Sprange claiming to have been misunderstood on the other. None of us not privy to the emails they exchanged really had any way of knowing who was being 'right' or reasonable.

Mr. Sprange's seeming to have misrepresented JMS's involvement in the podcasts, though, and JMS's posts responding to the questions raised by fans familiar with the podcasts has raised the temperature of discussions a notch. Some (like me) tend to accept and defend JMS's point of view based on his 14 years of history with the show and fan interraction. Others, like Night Marshall, seem to think that JMS is being spiteful and controlling.

In the end, everybody will make up their own mind whether to buy the books or not. My feeling is that they should have all the information available to them.

I've read here, can't remember who posted it, but they've stated JMS has contradicted his own B5 continuity. If I'm wrong, please inform.

To an extent. As with any unfolding universe, there were some obvious signs of a 'work in progress' that you wouldn't have seen if these were an actual novel instead of a 'novel for television'. Two castes became three. Zathras didn't appear in a conference room in a flash of light, he was found in a maintenence bay. The sort of things that would have been edited out before publishing if the story had been in print.



Jan

[Kloreep]

I've read here, can't remember who posted it, but they've stated JMS has contradicted his own B5 continuity. If I'm wrong, please inform.

One example that comes to mind is the story of Sheridan's destruction of the Minbari flagship. At the beginning of season two when the story was first told, the battle/asteroid mining took place inside our solar system, I believe "during the last days of the war"; but by the time In The Beginning came around, the scene moved to another star system, before the Minbari penetrated to Sol.

But then, that is JMS' decision to create an inconsistency in favor of what he viewed as a better set-up. I agree with those saying the novels may be good. They may indeed be great. My problem with them is fairly unique to B5. In my view, the great strength of the B5 universe comes from the one-man-job JMS pulled for much of the show. Without a single vision behind it, could there have been a "War Without End" or a "The Fall of Centauri Prime"? I believe JMS' singular role may also be responsible for some of the show's weaknesses; if the writing burden hadn't been on a single person, would there have been a "Grey 17 is Missing"? Still, at the end of the day I think the show was far better for being under the sole creative control of its great maker, and that is why I am skeptical of anything he does not approve of; not because I don't think others can carry the universe forward well, but because I think others cannot carry it forward so very well indeed. My standards for B5 are high, and much as I may enjoy ridiculing Infection when I have the misfortune of watching it, I just don't think anyone besides JMS can make the kind of B5 that is B5 - the kind that is part of such a grandiose plan so rarely seen on TV. I generally avoid "uncanonical" stories because I think they cannot help but dissolve into the more disconnected, fragmented type of universe that I find more common in fiction.

[manwithnoname]

The issue is canonicity, not quality.
Jan

Well, my concern is NOT canonicity, but quality. From many years of reading comics, some of the best stories have come from ignoring contradicting continuity, establishing something new that's an amalgamation of non-contradicting continuity.

I've read here, can't remember who posted it, but they've stated JMS has contradicted his own B5 continuity. If I'm wrong, please inform.

[Towelmaster]

Jms reminds me of John McEnroe, focussing your anger to get a well-defined purpose. Hey, it works for some!

[Jan]

Which was lacking at times. It could be that some of these novels will be awesome.

And nobody disputes that at all. The issue is canonicity, not quality.

Jan

[Jan]

Just to clarify a bit here, there are two 'sets' of novels. The Dell novels were not based on any input from JMS and, while he had approval on them, he's noted before that sometimes he never even got his copies to vet until very late in the game and while he was in the throes of producing the show itself. Of the Dell novels, only #7--The Shadow Within by Jeanne Cavelos and #9--To Dream in the City of Sorrows are considered to be almost entirely canon.

The Del Rey books were the three trilogies and are considered 'canon in the broad strokes'.

And you know...for those who are going on about JMS wanting to keep control over what's canon, there's nothing new at all about that so perhaps you weren't reading carefully enough in the past. For instance, this post from Feb. 2000 explains it rather well.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

We trust B5 because of the quality of JMS's writing and vision.

Which was lacking at times. It could be that some of these novels will be awesome.

Strange...all of these books are listed as having the same number of pages.

[jahkneebee]

Let's look at a group of novels already printed. The Del Ray series dem (island plural).

The Trilogies are way cool. Some of the novels, especially "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" are superb.

Many suck.

JMS provided the outlines for the Del Ray books, but very few were endorsed as canon after-the-fact. If, even after providing the initial input, the Great Maker denied that the books could exist as canon in the B5 Universe, well he must have been right. I bet he was more than just a little disappointed. But the non-canon books from that JMS experience are labeled such correctly. And who in their right mind would want some truly terrible writing to be endorsed into their universe? We trust B5 because of the quality of JMS's writing and vision.

His B5 Universe and "timeline can't be 'wrapped up' by anyone who doesn't know what was coming, and the only person who knows what was coming is me"-posted 5/16 by JMS

Rather than abandoning the B5 Universe, he is keeping it pure for future enjoyment. Our enjoyment.

I, for one, thank him.

[rallytbk]

Don't get me wrong... I know he is voicing his concerns about Mongoose now, but how long will it be before some other licensee tries this again? Canon, official or authorized fan fic with television backing. I, for one support JMS vision, unlike other people who accept action scenes without a clear plot and direction or even contridictions to the show.

Think Terminator 3 "bad movie for all"

[manwithnoname]

If JMS doesn't say something/do something (for the fans) to clarify what is being published/produced/quoted as Babylon 5 Canon, what is official or authorized fan fic by licensees then he could lose his franchise and fans base due to lack of interest or worst...

He has, Rallytbk.

Jan's copied/pasted JMS' responses to Matthew Sprange of Mongoose. JMS is NOT involved in any capacity with Mongoose's B5 novels. Matthew has lied about JMS' involvement with the novels.

Mongoose holds the B5 license, that's it.

[Jan]

you trying to wind me up jan Piers Bashing, I won't have it I tell you.

Wind down, Phaze. Honest, I was just trying to think of a writer as prolific as JMS. Really. Would this face lie?

Jan

[rallytbk]

All I know is this... If JMS doesn't say something/do something (for the fans) to clarify what is being published/produced/quoted as Babylon 5 Canon, what is official or authorized fan fic by licensees then he could lose his franchise and fans base due to lack of interest or worst... if this continues to happen. How? Think Terminator 3

[phazedout]

you trying to wind me up jan Piers Bashing, I won't have it I tell you.
Phaze
on the "need to decompress" ID