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  • vacantlook
    replied
    I particularly liked the fiery burst of the last First One ship that Ivanova and Lorien found before joining Sheridan's fleet. Of course, we can't say with any certainty whatsoever that that fiery burst had anything to do with hyperspace, but it was still cool looking.

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  • Phil Harmonic
    replied
    So each of the first ones had different ways of entering hyperspace, but all the younger races use the Vorlon way.

    The Shadow way seems the most .... efficient

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  • Raapys
    replied
    I don't really think so. I think that the differences we see in the show, except those of the Shadows, has less to do with the ships' technologies than it has to do with some space-scene desginers for the show that wanted to try something a little different.(Or perhaps they just got a hold of some new 'special fx' and wanted to make it look better).

    As Garabaldi's Heir said, all the younger races has built their hyperspace systems based on the existing gates, which presumably were built by the Vorlons. This means they all use the same hyperspace engines. Who knows how long, if ever, it would have taken them to discover it by themselves.

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  • Kaleign
    replied
    I'm more inclined to believe that the differences in entering and exiting to/from hyperspace probably has more to do with the differences in the technologies used in each instance. For example, as mentioned, the entering hyperspace by the Excalibur may be different than, say the Whitestars, since the Whitestars are built along similar lines of technology as previous versions of Minbari ships. However, while the Excalibur was built with Minbari technology, it also included Human and Vorlon technologies as well. Perhaps it is the combination of the three races' technology or it is the advancement of select technology like the jump engines. Also, consider that the First Ones like at Sigma 957 might be a little different in technology on the very basis that they are millions (or more) years ahead of Humans in technology. And while the Vorlons' entering hyperspace may be similar to the younger races, it should be noted that the Vorlons themselves had built the Thirdspace Gate, which, I imagine would probably be widely different than any other race in and of itself

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  • Raapys
    replied
    Not true ... on the occasions that we see the Walkers at Sigma 957, they are shown entering and exitting hyperspace in a way unlike either the Vorlons or the Shadows.
    Not entirely. If you look in the episode Mind War in season 1, you can see them opening a jump point just like the Vorlons, although it has a 'electrical' theme.However, in, for instance, A Call To Arms, the jump gate at B5 is seen to have a very similar electrical theme.

    Then again, after the big battle in Into the Fire, all the First Ones, except V & S, are shown simply disappearing into a bright dot.
    I'd wager that perhaps they just didn't put much thought into that scene, though, and just let the other First Ones share the same exit.

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  • Garibaldi's Hair
    replied
    Originally posted by Raapys
    Yes, but they seem to be unique in their ability to do so. All the other First Ones are shown entering and exiting hyperspace in a similar form to the Vorlons.
    Not true ... on the occasions that we see the Walkers at Sigma 957, they are shown entering and exitting hyperspace in a way unlike either the Vorlons or the Shadows.

    There have also been various discussions down the years (although nothing definitive from JMS, IIRC) speculating that the jumpgate technology in the hands of the younger races stems from the Vorlons originally, hence it makes sense that jumpgates, and jump points formed by ships of the younger races, would look the same as points formed by Vorlon ships, as they use similar tech.

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  • vacantlook
    replied
    Yes, but they seem to be unique in their ability to do so. All the other First Ones are shown entering and exiting hyperspace in a similar form to the Vorlons. Which speaks volumes about how different the Shadows are from the other races.
    Even though the Shadows, the Vorlons, and the other First Ones were all First Ones, I got the impression from things said throughout the show that the Shadows were the oldest of all the ones remaining in the galaxy (except for Lorien). Perhaps that has some part to the explanation of the differences in getting into hyperspace they have from others.

    I believe that what was going at Lyta's mind was the Eye at Z'ha'dum, probably and anti-telepath technology more than a telepathic Shadow.
    As I see it, that was the Shadows in their energy form, while the rest of the time we see them in corporal form. You see more of them in the Sigma system when Ivanova is using Draal's Great Machine to search for First Ones, in S3E05. Fourteen eyes aligned just as they are in the Shadow corporal form. And also 'it knows my name', as she says, indicating telepathy, and more, as "the eyes" manage to persuade the entire Whitestar crew to descend to Zha'ha'Dum, in season 4.
    I'd say it's less them in an energy form and more of Shadows in long-distance telepathic communication. The Techno-Mage Trilogy details some of the discovery that Galen makes on a form of communication that Shadows have with one another across lightyears of distance. I'd say that Ivanova's contact with the Shadow eyes floating in space was her perceiving the Shadow's long-distant telepathy as they focused it in on her.

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  • Raapys
    replied
    Originally posted by Capt.Montoya
    The First Ones were not all-knowing. Knowing a lot is not the same as "all knowing".
    Really, you can explain their powers as advanced technology combined with lots of brainpower and lots of knowlegde.
    But if you must believe they are god-like (or your conception of godhood is that limited)... well, mileage does vary.
    What I meant about 'all-knowing' was more about them seeing the world as it really is, instead of just the illusion of senses. Not all-knowing as in knowing everything happening everywhere, at any time. As you say, mileages does vary. God-like, to me, is 'very powerful', not like the christian all-powerful God.

    Not any race, we know they Centauri and the Vorlon are "a dying race" and won't reach first-oneness.
    Yah, that's why I added the 'if they live long enough' part. Both Narns & Centauri has telepaths, though, so that shows they at least were evolving in the same direction.

    We can assume it goes like you say, however there might be an intermediate stage, and I think that it can be telepathic or telekinetic, or even neither. To assume that a race has to be telepathic to reach first-oneness would imply that all Humanity and Minbarity would become telepathic, I didn't see anything in the series to indicate that.
    Yes, it would. There's the problem that we don't really get to see anything of the Human or Minbari race after they've reached that stage of evolution. Except in Deconstruction, but that just shows the human morphing into energy form. I think it's logical to assume, though, that based on the information we have, telepathy and telekinesis are a prerequisite to evolving further. And as time went by, the telepathic gene would only get stronger, and telepaths more common, until finally the 'normals' would be extinct.

    The transition to first-oneness seems to have been a collective one, that could be achieved independently of the meddling of Vorlons (or Shadows), as seen in River of Souls.
    Agreed, but I was thinking that the Vorlons hastened the evolution of humans, amongst others, so they could make better use of the younger races against the Shadows the next war, since the rest of the First Ones had left. Most of them, anyway.

    The Shadows ability to phase in-out of hyperspace without jumpgates to me only means a different technology, one likely related to their ability for invisibility.
    Yes, but they seem to be unique in their ability to do so. All the other First Ones are shown entering and exiting hyperspace in a similar form to the Vorlons. Which speaks volumes about how different the Shadows are from the other races.

    I believe that what was going at Lyta's mind was the Eye at Z'ha'dum, probably and anti-telepath technology more than a telepathic Shadow.
    As I see it, that was the Shadows in their energy form, while the rest of the time we see them in corporal form. You see more of them in the Sigma system when Ivanova is using Draal's Great Machine to search for First Ones, in S3E05. Fourteen eyes aligned just as they are in the Shadow corporal form. And also 'it knows my name', as she says, indicating telepathy, and more, as "the eyes" manage to persuade the entire Whitestar crew to descend to Zha'ha'Dum, in season 4.

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  • Capt.Montoya
    replied
    Originally posted by Raapys
    I always saw telepathy as the next step in evolution for a race. Like when Psi Corp managed to produce the right drug combination to elevate one of their telepaths into an energy being, in season 1, you can see telepathy eventually leads to becoming 'all-knowing', sort of God-like( Like the Vorlons, Lorien, and the Shadows).
    The First Ones were not all-knowing. Knowing a lot is not the same as "all knowing".
    Really, you can explain their powers as advanced technology combined with lots of brainpower and lots of knowlegde.
    But if you must believe they are god-like (or your conception of godhood is that limited)... well, mileage does vary.

    It goes like: Intelligent->Telepathic->Telekinetic->Being of energy. So eventually, the entire population of any race would evolve into that, assuming they lived long enough.
    Not any race, we know they Centauri and the Vorlon are "a dying race" and won't reach first-oneness. We can assume it goes like you say, however there might be an intermediate stage, and I think that it can be telepathic or telekinetic, or even neither. To assume that a race has to be telepathic to reach first-oneness would imply that all Humanity and Minbarity would become telepathic, I didn't see anything in the series to indicate that.

    What the Vorlons did was to speed up the natural evolution of the younger races.
    The transition to first-oneness seems to have been a collective one, that could be achieved independently of the meddling of Vorlons (or Shadows), as seen in River of Souls.

    Assuming that's correct, then all first ones had both telepathic and telekinetic ability. You can see proof that the Shadows have abilities to travel space without ships and enter other people's minds too, when Lyta & CO goes to Zha'ha'Dum looking for Sheridan. Then again, the Shadows also seem entirely different from all other races with their ability to phase in and out of reality and hyperspace.
    The Shadows ability to phase in-out of hyperspace without jumpgates to me only means a different technology, one likely related to their ability for invisibility.
    I believe that what was going at Lyta's mind was the Eye at Z'ha'dum, probably and anti-telepath technology more than a telepathic Shadow.

    Originally posted by Phil Harmonic
    Perhaps cause their ships are only piloted by one being? And the piloted are quite mad anyway. Perhaps they can phase in and out only because they are plugged into those ships?
    I think the pilots only go mad when not plugged in to the Shadow Tech device they were supposed to control. They are modified into a CPU, you don't want a mad CPU (especialy when you already have a maddening OS like Windows ), but a CPU would act erractically if not connected to the right input/output units.
    Last edited by Capt.Montoya; 04-01-2006, 02:46 PM. Reason: added reply to Phil H.

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  • Phil Harmonic
    replied
    Perhaps cause their ships are only piloted by one being? And the piloted are quite mad anyway. Perhaps they can phase in and out only because they are plugged into those ships?

    BTW - The Battlecrab is still the coolest looking ship in Sci Fi history to me.

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  • Raapys
    replied
    I always saw telepathy as the next step in evolution for a race. Like when Psi Corp managed to produce the right drug combination to elevate one of their telepaths into an energy being, in season 1, you can see telepathy eventually leads to becoming 'all-knowing', sort of God-like( Like the Vorlons, Lorien, and the Shadows).

    It goes like: Intelligent->Telepathic->Telekinetic->Being of energy. So eventually, the entire population of any race would evolve into that, assuming they lived long enough. What the Vorlons did was to speed up the natural evolution of the younger races.

    Assuming that's correct, then all first ones had both telepathic and telekinetic ability. You can see proof that the Shadows have abilities to travel space without ships and enter other people's minds too, when Lyta & CO goes to Zha'ha'Dum looking for Sheridan. Then again, the Shadows also seem entirely different from all other races with their ability to phase in and out of reality and hyperspace.

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  • Jan
    replied
    Because neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows want to confront each other openly. For centuries they've been manipulating the younger races and getting them to do the fighting for them. That was why Sheridan manipuleted *them* into the confrontation with each other at Coriana 6.

    Jan

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  • Phil Harmonic
    replied
    Also the Vorlons seem HIGHLY telepathic, why do they need ANY help dealing with the shadows?

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  • Leto II
    replied
    Read J. Gregory Keyes's Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi-Corps...the entire canonical Terran telepath history is laid out there, in exquisite detail. In a nutshell, Human teeps didn't start showing up until the early 22nd Century, and were officially "discovered" not long after the founding of the Earth Alliance.

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  • Boo Gee
    replied
    I'm not sure if it would be considered cannon, but the mongoose book "Darkness & Light" covers everything regarding the creation of telepaths by the Vorlons. Even if it isn't canon, it's a cool read.

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