The Red Data Crystal G'Kar had in , "And the rock cried, no hiding"

[AmyG]

it isn't like you could look that kind of stuff up in Minbar on 50 Credits a Day)

Of course not.

You're much more likely to find that kind of information in Lonely Planet: Minbar.

[Joseph DeMartino]

Oops!
Bad fan, Spanishfan. Bad fan.

Not necessarily. JMS tinkered at least a little with most of the freelance scripts, often dropping in entire "b" or "c" stories if they felt thin. He just didn't take screen credit (although he arguably could have under Guild rules.) He had been the victim of this practice on other shows (producers or story editors taking screen credit on scripts they'd hardly touched in order to share in fees and furture royalties) so he went to the other extreme. The alien abduction scene at the top of the episode, for instance, was JMS's. And even if Christy Marx had screwed up the line about the castes (which could only have been based on information that she got from JMS in the first place - it isn't like you could look that kind of stuff up in Minbar on 50 Credits a Day) the mistake should have been caught by JMS, who certainly read the script before it was shot. If it went to the soundstage with that glaring a mistake, the blame still goes to JMS.

Regards,

Joe

[SpanishFan]

Or Christy Marx. It was her episode.

Oops!
Bad fan, Spanishfan. Bad fan.

[Jan]

It was in Grail. And, since JMS says he just watches the universe and merely transcribes it in script form, I blame Lennier

Or Christy Marx. It was her episode.

BTW, I was thinking about this the other day and realized that the Warrior and religious castes' behaviour towards the worker one parallels that of the vorlons and shadows towards the younger races.
They are the ones who call the shots (in different directions) and expect the workers to follow because they know what's best for them.
And in the end, the workers rule the council pretty much like the younger races rule the galaxy.

I don't know if it was intentional or just happened, but I thought it was worth commenting.
Just my 2 cents, anyway.

Interesting. Another Babylon 5 symmetry.

Jan

[SpanishFan]

I think that's in "Passing Through Gethsemane" or "Grail"... Anyway, yes, it's Lennier who makes the mistake, and I always chose to see it as a bit of deeply-ingrained religious caste arrogance, even though it's probably more likely that it was just a scripting mistake.

It was in Grail. And, since JMS says he just watches the universe and merely transcribes it in script form, I blame Lennier

BTW, I was thinking about this the other day and realized that the Warrior and religious castes' behaviour towards the worker one parallels that of the vorlons and shadows towards the younger races.
They are the ones who call the shots (in different directions) and expect the workers to follow because they know what's best for them.
And in the end, the workers rule the council pretty much like the younger races rule the galaxy.

I don't know if it was intentional or just happened, but I thought it was worth commenting.
Just my 2 cents, anyway.

[AmyG]

I think that's in "Passing Through Gethsemane" or "Grail"... Anyway, yes, it's Lennier who makes the mistake, and I always chose to see it as a bit of deeply-ingrained religious caste arrogance, even though it's probably more likely that it was just a scripting mistake.

[Joseph DeMartino]

One thing I noticed is Delean said there were Two castes of Mimbari, but aren't there 3? Religious, Warrior and Worker? Slip up?

Probably 2 real-world possibilities - 1) mistake. 2) JMS hadn't worked out the whole "3 castes" thing yet. But I seem to recall a usenet post from right around the time this episode was shooting where JMS mentioned 3 castes, worker, warrior and religious.

In story terms Delenn's mistake (actually, I'm pretty sure it is Lennier who utters the line, which I think signficant) reflects the degree to which the Warrior and Religious castes ignore the Workers. "We have two castes that matter..." is the unspoken part. I think Delenn was always more aware of the Workers and their place in Minbari society, which made her unusual among the dominant castes. (Rather as Kosh was more sympathetic to the younger races than most Vorlons.) Naturally Delenn could not correct Lennier's error without causing him to lose face, and in terms of dealing with outsiders and Aldous's quest, for all practical purposes there were only two castes. So she let it go.

She makes up for it later, of course.

Anyway that's how I choose to interpret the event.

Regards,

Joe

[Phil Harmonic]

It's fun trying to gleen stuff that may have had a hint WAAAY before. I'm watching the first season again. One thing I noticed is Delean said there were Two castes of Mimbari, but aren't there 3? Religious, Warrior and Worker? Slip up?

I thought it was chilling that even thing that happened to Narn could have been prevented but for one 2 minutes conversation. Morden may have chosen the Narn to help with their plans. It's funny how that two minute conversation affected the rest of the show. What could have been.

[SpanishFan]

So in conclusion, let me just say that I now can't understand why this thread was ever opened in the first place.

Because it's fun?

[Joseph DeMartino]

Sometimes it really helps to look at the episodes when discussing them, which I've only recently regained the ability to do since getting my home theater reassembled and my B5 DVDs unpacked.

I do remember a few episodes earlier, the one with King Arthur, before G'Kar jumps into the fight against the lurkers fighting King Arthur, he is speaking with a human who gives him a RED DATA crystal.

Your memory is playing tricks on you. In "A Late Delivery from Avalon" G'Kar receives a clear data-crystal from a human smuggler. And the dialogue makes it clear that said crystal has nothing to do with Londo.

SMUGGLER:
"Everyone you asked for. Right in there."

G'KAR:
"How can I be sure you've contacted everyone?"

SMUGGLER:
"I'm a man of my word. Want to pay half now, half when you've looked it over? That's fine. Look, I'm ain't gonna mess this up. I don't want to mess this up. I bring messages back and forth from your people on Narn and none of its secret info or anything. That's a sweet deal.

G'KAR:
"I should think so, given the price we pay to get this past the Centauri."

So much for "RED" data crystal number 1.

In "And the Rock..." G'Kar pulls out a projection device. It has a red light on top, but there is no sign of a data crystal, red or otherwise. Now, it may be that Londo's message in the projector is on a data crystal, but we never see one, red or otherwise. It isn't even certain that G'Kar had received the projector before arriving on Narn. The same agents who bribed the guards assigned to Refa could have slipped it to Narn. Both Londo's message and G'Kar's reactions while it plays seem to indicate that G'Kar had agreed to go to Centauri Prime and help Londo kill some Centauri who had killed many Narn, and probably that Narn prisoners would be released in exchange, but that G'Kar didn't know all of the specifics of the plot until he listened to the message with Refa.

I've gone through the G'Kar/Refa scene frame-by-frame and I can't get a clear enough view to be certain, but I think the datacrystal may have red to begin with. (It is hard to tell if it is picking up the red color from the surroundings when it looks red, or reflecting the white studio lights when it looks white or possibly clear.) BTW, the shape of the crystal doesn't seem to match the one that Londo later gives to Virini, so they may have been different props.

Finally the crystal in the Virini scene seems to simply be red, not spattered with blood. I can't imagine that someone would have brought it all the way from Narn to B5 without wiping it off and I seriously doubt that Londo would hand over such a gory relic of his late enemy to Virini. Hell given that data crystals are read optically and store data in 3D that damned thing probably couldn't be used unless it were cleaned off first.

So in conclusion, let me just say that I now can't understand why this thread was ever opened in the first place.

Regards,

Joe

[SpanishFan]

When was Londo's falling out with Reffa, it was the episode he dualed his friend, what episode was that?

But they openly quarrel only in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" where Londo poisons Refa. That was episode 311, just one before "Late Delivery..." which actually works to reinforce PH's suggestion that the LDfA handover had something to do with Londo.

Londo poisoned Refa, but didn't really intended on killing him. The events on "The rock..." are a revenge for the death of Adira in "Interludes and examinations" which is after "Late Delivery...".

I always assumed it was short before the episode that Londo talked to G'Kar about it. Anyway, I'm watching S3 now ("Dust to Dust" tomorrow), so I'll keep an eye on them and see if there is any clue about their schemes .

[Dipper]

Two things you are forgetting:

1. The datacrystal was transparent when G'Kar said "This is to be found on his body" (or something) and this to me clearly states that the "red" datacrystal seen later is just smeared with blood.

2. Londo has given G'Kar the recording which he plays to Refa. In this recording Londo says that he has given G'Kar documents which prove Refa's role in the assault to Narn. Thus G'Kar couldn't have been ignorant about the plot against Refa and his role in it.

[moreorless]

G'Kar already knew what the Centauri did to his world. No surprise there.

When G'Kar found out that Lord Refa was the one who put it together, it was controlled rage that was on G'Kar's face.

G'Kar watches the beating of Refa, then walks away before the fade out to commercial. I've assumed it was then G'Kar let his emotions pour fourth, like he did when Sheridan and Delenn told him of their plans to help the Narn, without letting their governments know.

Personally I viewed that as a change in G'Kar's character, the old G'Kar would have killed Refa himself and enjoyed it but the post revelation one was more interested in how his death would help his people.

[grumbler]

When was Londo's falling out with Reffa, it was the episode he dualed his friend, what episode was that?

But they openly quarrel only in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" where Londo poisons Refa. That was episode 311, just one before "Late Delivery..." which actually works to reinforce PH's suggestion that the LDfA handover had something to do with Londo.

[DeMonk]

When was Londo's falling out with Reffa, it was the episode he dualed his friend, what episode was that?

It was "Knives".