Jason Ironheart

[Harrdy]

Well, My stomach is significant to me, but my perfectly working stomach cannot live on when my brain is dead, can he? (Outside of the hospital and outside of a new body)

The ship could have been the "stomach", giving energy and shelter, maybe not limited to that. But if the "Brain" (or whatever count's as brain in a vorlon *g*) died the rest would be of no further use, but the younger races would love to get the know how in biological machinerie, maybe even get some "specs" of the Vorlons. Therefore the ship must be sent away, I think.

PeAcE

[grumbler]

Just to add to the mix, I've read one theory (probably in the Lurker's Guide) that the significant part of a Vorlon is actually the ship, and what travels inside the encounter suit is just an extension of the ship. I have no idea if that's in any way true, but it's an interesting idea.

Yeah, that is an interesting bit of speculation. Too bad the death of Kosh kinda makes it OBE - had his still-intact ship been the "significant part" of Kosh, no one would have been all that upset at the destruction of the extension.

[SLerman]

Just to add to the mix, I've read one theory (probably in the Lurker's Guide) that the significant part of a Vorlon is actually the ship, and what travels inside the encounter suit is just an extension of the ship. I have no idea if that's in any way true, but it's an interesting idea.

[Raapys]

Good point. Kosh does mention, after the incident you described, that he retired to his >ship< to rest. And it's also mentioned throughout the series that the Vorlon Ships are connected to their owner, and can't go on without them, which suggests there's a very strong link between the Vorlons and their ships.

One ability I find interesting with the Vorlons is their ability to 'see' past occurrences, as Kosh2 does when he first arrive at B5.

[vacantlook]

As for why the used ships, that'd be for the same reason as why the used encounter suits, I'll wager.

The use of ships could just be more efficent and less stressful, too. I imagine propelling oneself through the great distance of space would sap a lot of one's energy, so having something else do it for you would enable you to avoid feeling drained. And Vorlons definitely get drained, after all, look at how Kosh got so exhausted from having to massively telepathically adjust what he looked like to make everyone around at B5 to see him as their respective being of light when he saved Sheridan in "The Fall Of Night".

[Raapys]

Well, we sort of saw how powerful Kosh2 was: electricity and weapons fire didn't even scratch him. It took the remains of Kosh1 and a part of Lorien, the first and most powerful being, to defeat him. It's obvious that the Vorlons can travel space without ships, you can see that nearing the end of the battle they can be seen flying towards Kosh2's transport, as someone already mentioned. As for why the used ships, that'd be for the same reason as why the used encounter suits, I'll wager.
The Shadows too can be seen travelling space without ships, as noticeable by the eyes floating around in space.

[grumbler]

I must admit that I don't understand the debate. Ironheart's fate was to be accelerated a "million years" in human evolution. What he did at the end of "Mind War" was the same thing that the "AD one million" human dude did at the end of "Deconstruction..." Which is to say the same thing Kosh and Kosh2 did. And the same thing Lorien did. That is, he could travel in his energy form. Whether or not he could use hyperspace is an interesting question, but maybe not an appropriate one. Did Sheridan use hyperspace when he went BTR?

As to Jason being more powerful than a Vorlon, I doubt it, for reasons given; he was a n00b "First One" and they were not.

[Phil Harmonic]

I don't think we ever saw just how powerful Vorlons were.
The closest we saw was the Kosh vs. Ulkesh battle in "Falling Toward Apotheosis". From that I think that Vorlons could also manipulate energy and matter directly with their minds.
I actually think that it would be Vorlons who could rip Ironheart appart with a tought, moreso if you realize that Ironheart didn't know yet how to control his powers while Vorlons would surely do.

Also consider this comment by JMS (out of Lurker's Guide):
Ironheart wasn't that powerful, he spent almost all his strenght in vanishing a person and knocking down another. Another quote, same source: Note that this means JMS created Ironheart (not Ironheart being created by the Psi-Corps) for the purpose of planting the seeds of the Psi-Corps shadowy (pun intended) activities into the show, as well as giving Talia the gift of enhanced powers.

So really, Ironheart was a one-shot character, never meant to return, only meant to introduce some points to the arc and hint at the first-oneness that humans would achieve in a million years, not really that powerful as you assume (want?) him to be.

Also realize that JMS never meant for Vorlons to be omnipotent, in B5 even First Ones have limitations. That's why it's a science fiction show, speculating about unlimited power is Fantasy, not SF.

Um i'm talking about Ironheart AFTER he had become.

[Capt.Montoya]

I would think his ability to directly manipulate both matter as well as energy with his mind makes him EXTREMELY powerful.

He could rip a Vorlon apart with a thought.

I don't think we ever saw just how powerful Vorlons were.
The closest we saw was the Kosh vs. Ulkesh battle in "Falling Toward Apotheosis". From that I think that Vorlons could also manipulate energy and matter directly with their minds.
I actually think that it would be Vorlons who could rip Ironheart appart with a tought, moreso if you realize that Ironheart didn't know yet how to control his powers while Vorlons would surely do.

Also consider this comment by JMS (out of Lurker's Guide):

Bester wasn't killed because a) it took a *lot* out of Ironheart to take out Kelsey, and b) Bester *shot him* prior to being taken down, and the pain and trauma of being shot has a tendency to have an adverse effect on one; it took all his strength just to knock Bester down before collapsing to the floor, his energy (as you can see in the film) fading away....

Ironheart wasn't that powerful, he spent almost all his strenght in vanishing a person and knocking down another. Another quote, same source:

Ironheart was created, as one of many reasons, to exemplify a problem that is growing within Psi Corps. There will be other symptoms, though not as grand as that one.

Note that this means JMS created Ironheart (not Ironheart being created by the Psi-Corps) for the purpose of planting the seeds of the Psi-Corps shadowy (pun intended) activities into the show, as well as giving Talia the gift of enhanced powers.

So really, Ironheart was a one-shot character, never meant to return, only meant to introduce some points to the arc and hint at the first-oneness that humans would achieve in a million years, not really that powerful as you assume (want?) him to be.

Also realize that JMS never meant for Vorlons to be omnipotent, in B5 even First Ones have limitations. That's why it's a science fiction show, speculating about unlimited power is Fantasy, not SF.

[Phil Harmonic]

I would think his ability to directly manipulate both matter as well as energy with his mind makes him EXTREMELY powerful.

He could rip a Vorlon apart with a thought.

[Whyruss]

I prefer to speculate that powers are more limited. I think he didn't travel at the end (we saw him vanishing, not moving away).

Did he travel? - did he not? I think you can interpret it both ways (I prefer the travel theory). How sais his powers are unlimited? They are just extremely high...

[Capt.Montoya]

I disagree, we cannot even begin to speculate what would be or would not be possible for Jason.

Vorlons still need ships to travel, he didn't.

We can't even begin to speculate?
Seems to me you already did!

See you want to speculate that Ironheart was a god-like being, too powerful. You think he traveled without a ship.

I prefer to speculate that powers are more limited. I think he didn't travel at the end (we saw him vanishing, not moving away).

I think of technomages: no magic, only advanced technology.

And another possible difference: I prefer to speculate from what we know, not fit my notions of the unknown to the known B5.

Differences in approach, differences in opinion, that keeps the place interesting.

But I'm still unconvinced that Jason Ironheart had any significance beyond embodying a plot device to empower Talia.

[Phil Harmonic]

I Think that a ship is much more convenient for long distance travel than moving your energy-ball-form on your own...
B5 was "hard" SF, so even first-ones are subject to the laws of thermodynamics, you move your big energy ball a long distance, you spend energy, you might arrive a spark.
Hey! Maybe that's what happened to Ironheart, he spent almost all his energy, his very being, into moving forward in time, leaving just a spark to be revived a million years hence.

And who knows, maybe even firstones can't survive unexposed in hyperspace. Hyperspace does have effects for some (e.g. Telepaths) when not protected by a hull.

In any event, Ironheart was a one shot plot device, a deus-ex-psi-corps-machina, I'd rather speculate from things established more solidly in further seasons.

I disagree, we cannot even begin to speculate what would be or would not be possible for Jason.

Vorlons still need ships to travel, he didn't.

The only other being that didn't need a ship was Lorien.

Also I don't think the great machine was THAT powerful, they fired chemical propelled rockets for goodness sakes.

Also in the future where Bab 5 was destroyed by the shadows, he doesn't seem to have made a bit of difference.

[Capt.Montoya]

I think the Vorlons use ships just for show because when Kosh and "evil Kosh" were fighting in season 4, they went outside of the station. I think a lot of the things the First Ones do, is merely to make everyone feel comfortable around them which is why the Vorlons appear as their religious leaders/gods when outside of their encounter suit.

I Think that a ship is much more convenient for long distance travel than moving your energy-ball-form on your own...
B5 was "hard" SF, so even first-ones are subject to the laws of thermodynamics, you move your big energy ball a long distance, you spend energy, you might arrive a spark.
Hey! Maybe that's what happened to Ironheart, he spent almost all his energy, his very being, into moving forward in time, leaving just a spark to be revived a million years hence.

And who knows, maybe even firstones can't survive unexposed in hyperspace. Hyperspace does have effects for some (e.g. Telepaths) when not protected by a hull.

In any event, Ironheart was a one shot plot device, a deus-ex-psi-corps-machina, I'd rather speculate from things established more solidly in further seasons.

[Whyruss]

I think Lorien had a fish-looking Ship . . . if I recall right.

I think the Vorlons use ships just for show because when Kosh and "evil Kosh" were fighting in season 4, they went outside of the ship. I think a lot of the things the First Ones do, is merely to make everyone feel comfortable around them which is why they appear as their religious leaders/gods when outside of their encounter suit.

Good point!