Jason Ironheart

[Capt.Montoya]

I disagree, we cannot even begin to speculate what would be or would not be possible for Jason.

Vorlons still need ships to travel, he didn't.

We can't even begin to speculate?
Seems to me you already did!

See you want to speculate that Ironheart was a god-like being, too powerful. You think he traveled without a ship.

I prefer to speculate that powers are more limited. I think he didn't travel at the end (we saw him vanishing, not moving away).

I think of technomages: no magic, only advanced technology.

And another possible difference: I prefer to speculate from what we know, not fit my notions of the unknown to the known B5.

Differences in approach, differences in opinion, that keeps the place interesting.

But I'm still unconvinced that Jason Ironheart had any significance beyond embodying a plot device to empower Talia.

[Whyruss]

I prefer to speculate that powers are more limited. I think he didn't travel at the end (we saw him vanishing, not moving away).

Did he travel? - did he not? I think you can interpret it both ways (I prefer the travel theory). How sais his powers are unlimited? They are just extremely high...

[Phil Harmonic]

I would think his ability to directly manipulate both matter as well as energy with his mind makes him EXTREMELY powerful.

He could rip a Vorlon apart with a thought.

[Capt.Montoya]

I would think his ability to directly manipulate both matter as well as energy with his mind makes him EXTREMELY powerful.

He could rip a Vorlon apart with a thought.

I don't think we ever saw just how powerful Vorlons were.
The closest we saw was the Kosh vs. Ulkesh battle in "Falling Toward Apotheosis". From that I think that Vorlons could also manipulate energy and matter directly with their minds.
I actually think that it would be Vorlons who could rip Ironheart appart with a tought, moreso if you realize that Ironheart didn't know yet how to control his powers while Vorlons would surely do.

Also consider this comment by JMS (out of Lurker's Guide):

Bester wasn't killed because a) it took a *lot* out of Ironheart to take out Kelsey, and b) Bester *shot him* prior to being taken down, and the pain and trauma of being shot has a tendency to have an adverse effect on one; it took all his strength just to knock Bester down before collapsing to the floor, his energy (as you can see in the film) fading away....

Ironheart wasn't that powerful, he spent almost all his strenght in vanishing a person and knocking down another. Another quote, same source:

Ironheart was created, as one of many reasons, to exemplify a problem that is growing within Psi Corps. There will be other symptoms, though not as grand as that one.

Note that this means JMS created Ironheart (not Ironheart being created by the Psi-Corps) for the purpose of planting the seeds of the Psi-Corps shadowy (pun intended) activities into the show, as well as giving Talia the gift of enhanced powers.

So really, Ironheart was a one-shot character, never meant to return, only meant to introduce some points to the arc and hint at the first-oneness that humans would achieve in a million years, not really that powerful as you assume (want?) him to be.

Also realize that JMS never meant for Vorlons to be omnipotent, in B5 even First Ones have limitations. That's why it's a science fiction show, speculating about unlimited power is Fantasy, not SF.

[Phil Harmonic]

I don't think we ever saw just how powerful Vorlons were.
The closest we saw was the Kosh vs. Ulkesh battle in "Falling Toward Apotheosis". From that I think that Vorlons could also manipulate energy and matter directly with their minds.
I actually think that it would be Vorlons who could rip Ironheart appart with a tought, moreso if you realize that Ironheart didn't know yet how to control his powers while Vorlons would surely do.

Also consider this comment by JMS (out of Lurker's Guide):
Ironheart wasn't that powerful, he spent almost all his strenght in vanishing a person and knocking down another. Another quote, same source: Note that this means JMS created Ironheart (not Ironheart being created by the Psi-Corps) for the purpose of planting the seeds of the Psi-Corps shadowy (pun intended) activities into the show, as well as giving Talia the gift of enhanced powers.

So really, Ironheart was a one-shot character, never meant to return, only meant to introduce some points to the arc and hint at the first-oneness that humans would achieve in a million years, not really that powerful as you assume (want?) him to be.

Also realize that JMS never meant for Vorlons to be omnipotent, in B5 even First Ones have limitations. That's why it's a science fiction show, speculating about unlimited power is Fantasy, not SF.

Um i'm talking about Ironheart AFTER he had become.

[grumbler]

I must admit that I don't understand the debate. Ironheart's fate was to be accelerated a "million years" in human evolution. What he did at the end of "Mind War" was the same thing that the "AD one million" human dude did at the end of "Deconstruction..." Which is to say the same thing Kosh and Kosh2 did. And the same thing Lorien did. That is, he could travel in his energy form. Whether or not he could use hyperspace is an interesting question, but maybe not an appropriate one. Did Sheridan use hyperspace when he went BTR?

As to Jason being more powerful than a Vorlon, I doubt it, for reasons given; he was a n00b "First One" and they were not.

[Raapys]

Well, we sort of saw how powerful Kosh2 was: electricity and weapons fire didn't even scratch him. It took the remains of Kosh1 and a part of Lorien, the first and most powerful being, to defeat him. It's obvious that the Vorlons can travel space without ships, you can see that nearing the end of the battle they can be seen flying towards Kosh2's transport, as someone already mentioned. As for why the used ships, that'd be for the same reason as why the used encounter suits, I'll wager.
The Shadows too can be seen travelling space without ships, as noticeable by the eyes floating around in space.

[vacantlook]

As for why the used ships, that'd be for the same reason as why the used encounter suits, I'll wager.

The use of ships could just be more efficent and less stressful, too. I imagine propelling oneself through the great distance of space would sap a lot of one's energy, so having something else do it for you would enable you to avoid feeling drained. And Vorlons definitely get drained, after all, look at how Kosh got so exhausted from having to massively telepathically adjust what he looked like to make everyone around at B5 to see him as their respective being of light when he saved Sheridan in "The Fall Of Night".

[Raapys]

Good point. Kosh does mention, after the incident you described, that he retired to his >ship< to rest. And it's also mentioned throughout the series that the Vorlon Ships are connected to their owner, and can't go on without them, which suggests there's a very strong link between the Vorlons and their ships.

One ability I find interesting with the Vorlons is their ability to 'see' past occurrences, as Kosh2 does when he first arrive at B5.

[SLerman]

Just to add to the mix, I've read one theory (probably in the Lurker's Guide) that the significant part of a Vorlon is actually the ship, and what travels inside the encounter suit is just an extension of the ship. I have no idea if that's in any way true, but it's an interesting idea.

[grumbler]

Just to add to the mix, I've read one theory (probably in the Lurker's Guide) that the significant part of a Vorlon is actually the ship, and what travels inside the encounter suit is just an extension of the ship. I have no idea if that's in any way true, but it's an interesting idea.

Yeah, that is an interesting bit of speculation. Too bad the death of Kosh kinda makes it OBE - had his still-intact ship been the "significant part" of Kosh, no one would have been all that upset at the destruction of the extension.

[Harrdy]

Well, My stomach is significant to me, but my perfectly working stomach cannot live on when my brain is dead, can he? (Outside of the hospital and outside of a new body)

The ship could have been the "stomach", giving energy and shelter, maybe not limited to that. But if the "Brain" (or whatever count's as brain in a vorlon *g*) died the rest would be of no further use, but the younger races would love to get the know how in biological machinerie, maybe even get some "specs" of the Vorlons. Therefore the ship must be sent away, I think.

PeAcE