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Shadows vs. Vorlons

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  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    <<I just work on the basis that everyone knows what I'm talking about, because for the great majority, they do.>>

    Exactly.

    "Do not tread along the path of thorns if wounds are not desired."

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin
    replied
    This board has had the policy of being spolier heaven, because quite frankly the series has been done for 6 years :P Plus this board was set up for followers of JMS's posts, which are generally people quite knowledgeable about B5. That's why I just post here - I don't have to worry about spoliers or such, I just work on the basis that everyone knows what I'm talking about, because for the great majority, they do.

    So, if you're worried about being spoiled... you probably don't wanna read here ;P Or you might just want to be careful in your selection.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    <<Better leave some spoiler space there next time! Not everybody here has read all of the novels or seen Season 5.>>

    My personal policy when it comes to spoilers is that something that's been out for 2 years (the novels) doesn't fall into the spoiler category. Furthermore, you heard it now, so when you would have read it in the book, would you have been spoiled? Plus, the small group of people here pretty much know everything about B5.

    That said, I apologize. Stuff happens.

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  • bmp
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller

    And while the Vorlons made the teeps, the Shadows made the techno-mages.
    Better leave some spoiler space there next time! Not everybody here has read all of the novels or seen Season 5.

    Leave a comment:


  • iamsheridan
    replied
    Originally posted by Vir
    Everyone seems to be coming to similar conclusions. However, if they were truly what were called angels then how has that manipulated people ? I dont doubt that they probably appeared on hundreds of worlds posing as angelic beings for their own reasons, but how does that manipulate ?

    To me angels are just a myth or legend. Something to be in awe of, or to inspire you. My view is they took these forms simply as a disguise to visit the worlds they were nurturing. Not to manipulate people but to slowly prepare their subconcious for something greater, and more importantly, to make sure they did not fall into shadow. Either way I dont think this would 'control' people, it would simply leave them wondering in amazment. After all, we dont worship angels, we just asume they come from heaven where our god lives. If there were no angels it would not impact our religion or beliefs much at all.
    If you got to see two beings, one angel and one shadow-type, which one would you trust?

    As we learn from the series, none of them is good and none of them is, well, much worse than the other. But you still trust the angel-type, for no other reason than that it's an angel. At least I would. And which side would you choose in the possible coming conflict between these two?

    So, do you feel manipulated or not?

    I know I do.

    /IaS

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Kevin
    You're mistaken, it wasn't a open public event. Only the ambassadors were to be there, as Mr. Wells makes quite clear.
    Weeles actually says just the opposite: that among the reasons for choosing the Zen Garden is because it is "more public." The ZG is overlooked by any number of structures where a newsie could station him/herslef with a camera.

    G'Kar himself is hiding behind a bush not because he's a Narn (he has all the rights of a normal free citizen at that time as long as he's on Babylon 5) but because, as he very well says, he isn't allowed to be there.
    G'Kar never says that he isn't allowed to be there. Ivanova says he shouldn't be there, which is more because this is supposed to be an event that mollifies the Centauri, IMO, that because there is a rule against him being there. And if, as you say, the area was "closed off" then G'Kar couldn't have been there, as security would have stopped him.

    People besides the ambassadors knew of the event (G'Kar himself, for instance) and so I think it reasonable to assume any newsie with any serious sources would find out about the event, and want to cover it (not just human newsies, either).

    The only reason so many people saw it was that Kosh had to fly rather close to the central part of the open core (where the transport tubes go) and was rather shiny (to say the least) that it was hard to miss for any of the multitude of aliens who were around either the 1) maze area 2) other garden areas 3) Fresh Air Resturant or 4) Various other places that have an open view to the core.
    The area with a clear view to the core shuttle is simply huge, as the panoramas from the CS itself show. And the noise of the explosion is heard clearly on the ground in the Zen Garden, and therefor must have been heard in many paces throughout the whole "fresh air" area. Anyone taking pictures (of, say, junior swinging on some swings in some playground) anywhere in that entire area would naturally want to take some snaps/films of such an exciting event - if only to sell to the Univeral Tattler for a gazillion bucks (we have seen the like many times in various countries recently).

    So, to summarize... no, there would not be cameras of any sort nearby.
    So, to summarize, I don't think your case is correct. The fact that there WERE no pictures that we know of indicates that something along the lines of ZD's speculation must be true if there WERE cameras available, but there is no reason based on what happened in the show to assume that there were no cameras, period. Therefore, we can have fun wondering why there were no pictures that came out... with your answer being only one of the possibilites.

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    Well, maybe Kosh rendered the cams inoperable or else the scene would be all over the place on the news. But in the final scene they are just talking about it, not watching replays.
    I suspect that this is the answer JMS would have given if asked... but the speculation is still fun, no?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin
    replied
    Originally posted by grumbler
    Which brings us back to a point I have made elsewhere: we can assume that the speech by Sheridan, being such a public event, would have been covered by whatever news people were on the station. We can assume that if there were news people, there were cameras. If there were cameras, and they took a picture/film of Sheridan's rescue by kosh, what do they show?
    You're mistaken, it wasn't a open public event. Only the ambassadors were to be there, as Mr. Wells makes quite clear. Ambassadorial events have happened numerous times over the course of the series like the garden scene, and like in real life, none were ever open to the general public. G'Kar himself is hiding behind a bush not because he's a Narn (he has all the rights of a normal free citizen at that time as long as he's on Babylon 5) but because, as he very well says, he isn't allowed to be there.

    The only reason so many people saw it was that Kosh had to fly rather close to the central part of the open core (where the transport tubes go) and was rather shiny (to say the least) that it was hard to miss for any of the multitude of aliens who were around either the 1) maze area 2) other garden areas 3) Fresh Air Resturant or 4) Various other places that have an open view to the core.

    Various parts of the garden can be closed off for ceremonies; this is confirmed not only in the series but even so far as the "Guide to Babylon 5" CD ;P

    So, to summarize... no, there would not be cameras of any sort nearby.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    <<Which brings us back to a point I have made elsewhere: we can assume that the speech by Sheridan, being such a public event, would have been covered by whatever news people were on the station. We can assume that if there were news people, there were cameras. If there were cameras, and they took a picture/film of Sheridan's rescue by kosh, what do they show?>>

    Well, maybe Kosh rendered the cams inoperable or else the scene would be all over the place on the news. But in the final scene they are just talking about it, not watching replays.

    Leave a comment:


  • grumbler
    replied
    Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
    Oddly enough, what you suggest makes sense, even with the scene in In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum, where John sees the Shadows in Morden's room. But maybe he saw them because the cam saw them, not John directly...or...we're just grasping for straws here.
    Which brings us back to a point I have made elsewhere: we can assume that the speech by Sheridan, being such a public event, would have been covered by whatever news people were on the station. We can assume that if there were news people, there were cameras. If there were cameras, and they took a picture/film of Sheridan's rescue by kosh, what do they show?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin
    replied
    Re: Re: THE VORLONS as ANGELS

    Originally posted by LytaaaarGh
    So when Londo saw nothing in the garden, I had assumed it was because he had been touched/tainted by the shadows. Much like in religion if you lose your soul to the devil, you cannot see the beauty of God or won't go to heavan or whatever.

    Also remember that most of the time all the earthers/other beings in the Vorlons sphere of influence, couldn't see the Shadows that were with Morden, but he could see them.
    I rather like your analysis of Londo, and I agree completely with that. He had fallen into a darker path with darker allies, and the light was no longer clear to him.

    As for the second one, with Morden, that's a bit off... Morden was... modified by the Shadows to be able to see and understand them (as told in The Shadow Within). A bit similar to how Lyta was modified by the Vorlons really, only she was on a bit larger scale. Still, the parallel is rather neat.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    <<Both species have the ability to be seen by who they want when they want. Hence all the different races seeing something different and Londo seeing nothing.>>

    Oddly enough, what you suggest makes sense, even with the scene in In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum, where John sees the Shadows in Morden's room. But maybe he saw them because the cam saw them, not John directly...or...we're just grasping for straws here.

    Leave a comment:


  • LytaaaarGh
    replied
    Re: THE VORLONS as ANGELS

    Originally posted by MALCOLM XERXESÖ
    [color=red]DOCTORMANBOT,

    I disagree with your charge that they ômanipulated the lesser races into thinking that they wereö angelic on the basis that LONDO MOLLARI saw ônothingö holding CAPTAIN SHERIDAN.

    color]
    I assumed that to be going along with the whole good/evil - God/Devil thing.

    using no particular religion as an example. most religions pertain to the order and beauty that the vorlons tried to instill on the worlds they visited. Be kind to your neighbour don't kill etc. Now but also these religions at least in the past, had quite strong punishments for disobedience (like the Vorlon representation).

    The shadows who teach progression through conflict and chaos and basic darwinism would be seen as for example, like the devil, the dark one, who is in conflict with 'God' . Where the Volons had hold over a planet, not only would they teach thier 'Way' of living but also teach that the other 'way' (shadows') was wrong and evil and therefore would be represented and portrayed like that on that planet. Thus this insinuates, for example, that Earth would have been within the Vorlon zone of influence. Conversley the Drakh home planet would be in the Shadows zone influence, probably with religions based upon them (they probably saw the Vorlons as evil).

    So when Londo saw nothing in the garden, I had assumed it was because he had been touched/tainted by the shadows. Much like in religion if you lose your soul to the devil, you cannot see the beauty of God or won't go to heavan or whatever.

    Also remember that most of the time all the earthers/other beings in the Vorlons sphere of influence, couldn't see the Shadows that were with Morden, but he could see them.

    Both species have the ability to be seen by who they want when they want. Hence all the different races seeing something different and Londo seeing nothing.

    sorry if that was all a bit babbled
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sorry wrote that at the end of page 1 not realizing there was a whole page 2 thread to read!
    It's still relevant i guess thouh most all the points have been covered.
    ps i love the show and this is killing me cos i haven't seen it for aaaaages, i've been saving up my time and now im waiting for my friends to start watching....I dont even remember some of the stuff you guys are talking about in the 4th season its been so long... arrgh!
    Last edited by LytaaaarGh; 02-28-2004, 04:45 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • sixpence
    replied
    Originally posted by Jan

    And there's some indication that such might have been the case in the B5 universe. Remember in the episode "Dust to Dust", we see Kosh leaving the room where G'Kar had his vision of G'Lan and his father. G'Kar goes on to become a religious figure to his people. One has to ask, would he have had the change of heart that he did without that vision of the 'angelic' G'Lan?

    I love this show!!

    Jan

    Jan,

    Nice tie-in. Thanks! I think the scene with Kosh speaking to G'Kar in the form of his father is eloquent proof that the Vorlons have monkeyed around with spirtual/religious matters for millennia. In the ominous, somewhat immortal words of Kosh, "I have always been here." Well while he's alway been here, how many times, and in how many places has he appeared as an angel, doing Vorlon business? Not to mention, this meeting with Kosh/G'Lan gives G'Kar the epiphany that starts him off on his renewed spiritual journey.

    What a captivating concept, the Vorlons initiating (or refining) the religious systems of the Humans, Narns, Minbari, Centauri, Pak Mara, Game, Drazi, etc., etc., etc., on a thousand worlds!!

    Does it not boggle the mind?

    Cheers! Oh and I love this show too!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr Maturin
    replied
    I found some interesting verses from the Holy Bible that could be associated with the whole Vorlon thing. And then the Londo thing. Well, to be honest, this first verse found me one night when I woke up after dozing off with the TV on and a black preacher was on TV reading this passage.

    Here it is:

    From I Corinthians chapter 2:

    I was with you in (4) weakness and in (5) fear and in much trembling,
    4 and my message and my preaching were (6) not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of (7) the Spirit and of power,
    5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on (8) the power of God.
    6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are (9) mature; a wisdom, however, not of (10) this age nor of the rulers of (11) this age, who are (12) passing away;
    7 but we speak God's wisdom in a (13) mystery, the hidden wisdom which God (14) predestined before the (15) ages to our glory;
    8 the wisdom (16) which none of the rulers of (17) this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified (18) the Lord of glory;

    Very interesting indeed. This next short passage I came across while researching the former. I think it's downright parallel to Londo's reaction in The Fall Of Night:

    Hebrews chapter 11:

    1 Now faith is the (1) assurance of things (2) hoped for, the conviction of (3) things not seen.
    2 For by it the (4) men of old (5) gained approval.
    3 By faith we understand that the (6) worlds were prepared (7) by the word of God, so that what is seen (8) was not made out of things which are visible.

    Interesting.

    Leave a comment:

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