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Shadows vs. Vorlons

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  • #31
    Re: Re: THE VORLONS as ANGELS

    Originally posted by LytaaaarGh
    So when Londo saw nothing in the garden, I had assumed it was because he had been touched/tainted by the shadows. Much like in religion if you lose your soul to the devil, you cannot see the beauty of God or won't go to heavan or whatever.

    Also remember that most of the time all the earthers/other beings in the Vorlons sphere of influence, couldn't see the Shadows that were with Morden, but he could see them.
    I rather like your analysis of Londo, and I agree completely with that. He had fallen into a darker path with darker allies, and the light was no longer clear to him.

    As for the second one, with Morden, that's a bit off... Morden was... modified by the Shadows to be able to see and understand them (as told in The Shadow Within). A bit similar to how Lyta was modified by the Vorlons really, only she was on a bit larger scale. Still, the parallel is rather neat.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
      Oddly enough, what you suggest makes sense, even with the scene in In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum, where John sees the Shadows in Morden's room. But maybe he saw them because the cam saw them, not John directly...or...we're just grasping for straws here.
      Which brings us back to a point I have made elsewhere: we can assume that the speech by Sheridan, being such a public event, would have been covered by whatever news people were on the station. We can assume that if there were news people, there were cameras. If there were cameras, and they took a picture/film of Sheridan's rescue by kosh, what do they show?
      I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

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      • #33
        <<Which brings us back to a point I have made elsewhere: we can assume that the speech by Sheridan, being such a public event, would have been covered by whatever news people were on the station. We can assume that if there were news people, there were cameras. If there were cameras, and they took a picture/film of Sheridan's rescue by kosh, what do they show?>>

        Well, maybe Kosh rendered the cams inoperable or else the scene would be all over the place on the news. But in the final scene they are just talking about it, not watching replays.
        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by grumbler
          Which brings us back to a point I have made elsewhere: we can assume that the speech by Sheridan, being such a public event, would have been covered by whatever news people were on the station. We can assume that if there were news people, there were cameras. If there were cameras, and they took a picture/film of Sheridan's rescue by kosh, what do they show?
          You're mistaken, it wasn't a open public event. Only the ambassadors were to be there, as Mr. Wells makes quite clear. Ambassadorial events have happened numerous times over the course of the series like the garden scene, and like in real life, none were ever open to the general public. G'Kar himself is hiding behind a bush not because he's a Narn (he has all the rights of a normal free citizen at that time as long as he's on Babylon 5) but because, as he very well says, he isn't allowed to be there.

          The only reason so many people saw it was that Kosh had to fly rather close to the central part of the open core (where the transport tubes go) and was rather shiny (to say the least) that it was hard to miss for any of the multitude of aliens who were around either the 1) maze area 2) other garden areas 3) Fresh Air Resturant or 4) Various other places that have an open view to the core.

          Various parts of the garden can be closed off for ceremonies; this is confirmed not only in the series but even so far as the "Guide to Babylon 5" CD ;P

          So, to summarize... no, there would not be cameras of any sort nearby.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
            Well, maybe Kosh rendered the cams inoperable or else the scene would be all over the place on the news. But in the final scene they are just talking about it, not watching replays.
            I suspect that this is the answer JMS would have given if asked... but the speculation is still fun, no?
            I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

            Comment

            • #36
              Originally posted by Kevin
              You're mistaken, it wasn't a open public event. Only the ambassadors were to be there, as Mr. Wells makes quite clear.
              Weeles actually says just the opposite: that among the reasons for choosing the Zen Garden is because it is "more public." The ZG is overlooked by any number of structures where a newsie could station him/herslef with a camera.

              G'Kar himself is hiding behind a bush not because he's a Narn (he has all the rights of a normal free citizen at that time as long as he's on Babylon 5) but because, as he very well says, he isn't allowed to be there.
              G'Kar never says that he isn't allowed to be there. Ivanova says he shouldn't be there, which is more because this is supposed to be an event that mollifies the Centauri, IMO, that because there is a rule against him being there. And if, as you say, the area was "closed off" then G'Kar couldn't have been there, as security would have stopped him.

              People besides the ambassadors knew of the event (G'Kar himself, for instance) and so I think it reasonable to assume any newsie with any serious sources would find out about the event, and want to cover it (not just human newsies, either).

              The only reason so many people saw it was that Kosh had to fly rather close to the central part of the open core (where the transport tubes go) and was rather shiny (to say the least) that it was hard to miss for any of the multitude of aliens who were around either the 1) maze area 2) other garden areas 3) Fresh Air Resturant or 4) Various other places that have an open view to the core.
              The area with a clear view to the core shuttle is simply huge, as the panoramas from the CS itself show. And the noise of the explosion is heard clearly on the ground in the Zen Garden, and therefor must have been heard in many paces throughout the whole "fresh air" area. Anyone taking pictures (of, say, junior swinging on some swings in some playground) anywhere in that entire area would naturally want to take some snaps/films of such an exciting event - if only to sell to the Univeral Tattler for a gazillion bucks (we have seen the like many times in various countries recently).

              So, to summarize... no, there would not be cameras of any sort nearby.
              So, to summarize, I don't think your case is correct. The fact that there WERE no pictures that we know of indicates that something along the lines of ZD's speculation must be true if there WERE cameras available, but there is no reason based on what happened in the show to assume that there were no cameras, period. Therefore, we can have fun wondering why there were no pictures that came out... with your answer being only one of the possibilites.
              I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

              Comment

              • #37
                Originally posted by Vir
                Everyone seems to be coming to similar conclusions. However, if they were truly what were called angels then how has that manipulated people ? I dont doubt that they probably appeared on hundreds of worlds posing as angelic beings for their own reasons, but how does that manipulate ?

                To me angels are just a myth or legend. Something to be in awe of, or to inspire you. My view is they took these forms simply as a disguise to visit the worlds they were nurturing. Not to manipulate people but to slowly prepare their subconcious for something greater, and more importantly, to make sure they did not fall into shadow. Either way I dont think this would 'control' people, it would simply leave them wondering in amazment. After all, we dont worship angels, we just asume they come from heaven where our god lives. If there were no angels it would not impact our religion or beliefs much at all.
                If you got to see two beings, one angel and one shadow-type, which one would you trust?

                As we learn from the series, none of them is good and none of them is, well, much worse than the other. But you still trust the angel-type, for no other reason than that it's an angel. At least I would. And which side would you choose in the possible coming conflict between these two?

                So, do you feel manipulated or not?

                I know I do.

                /IaS
                Interstellar Alliance - Sweden's largest Babylon 5-club
                http://www.babcon.org/

                Comment

                • #38
                  Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller

                  And while the Vorlons made the teeps, the Shadows made the techno-mages.
                  Better leave some spoiler space there next time! Not everybody here has read all of the novels or seen Season 5.
                  A very great vision is needed and the man [or woman] who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky. - Crazy Horse

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                  • #39
                    <<Better leave some spoiler space there next time! Not everybody here has read all of the novels or seen Season 5.>>

                    My personal policy when it comes to spoilers is that something that's been out for 2 years (the novels) doesn't fall into the spoiler category. Furthermore, you heard it now, so when you would have read it in the book, would you have been spoiled? Plus, the small group of people here pretty much know everything about B5.

                    That said, I apologize. Stuff happens.
                    Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      This board has had the policy of being spolier heaven, because quite frankly the series has been done for 6 years :P Plus this board was set up for followers of JMS's posts, which are generally people quite knowledgeable about B5. That's why I just post here - I don't have to worry about spoliers or such, I just work on the basis that everyone knows what I'm talking about, because for the great majority, they do.

                      So, if you're worried about being spoiled... you probably don't wanna read here ;P Or you might just want to be careful in your selection.

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                      • #41
                        <<I just work on the basis that everyone knows what I'm talking about, because for the great majority, they do.>>

                        Exactly.

                        "Do not tread along the path of thorns if wounds are not desired."
                        Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

                        Comment

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