Shadows vs. Vorlons

[grumbler]

CE, I think you are correct, and that this was one of the morals of the story - that excess in ANY cause is bad, and that the Shadows and Vorlons became self-fulfilling prophets of war when they forgot the ends and mistakenly assumed that the means WERE the ends.

That he could wake them up was Sheridan's great gamble, and probably the most "philisophical" action bit in the show.

"Sheridan knows the answer... what remains to be seen is whether he KNOWS that he knows."

[sixpence]

Vorlons or Shadows....hmmmm what a choice!

Right off the bat I must agree with the "manipulation of younger races" charge against the Vorlons. By appearing to the younger races in angelic form, they consciously altered the socio-religious development of those lesser races. They manipulated, and perhaps even created religious systems on a thousand worlds to "control" the various populations. This is of course speculation, but think of it, what better way to achieve obedience from "savages" than by religious indoctrination? (by savages I mean lesser developed species to the Vorlon "Masters of the universe" way of thinking).

The Shadows are no better...

As we have seen, the Shadows' use of a member from a lesser race is to either brainwash them to do Shadow biddings, or they plug the being into a Battlecrab, or just mess about with bio-engineering and cybernetic adaptation! Not a very appetizing choice!

To the First Ones, the younger races were once something to be cared for and gently nutured, pointed in the right direction...Later the younger races turned into cannon fodder, expendible in the face of aggressive ideologies of the Vorlons and the Shadows!

A choice between the two...no thanks, I'll walk.

Cheers!

[MALCOLM XERXESÖ]

SIXPENCE,

I had not encountered that term before, "Battlecrab"....

...I like it!

[Vir]

Originally posted by sixpence
They manipulated, and perhaps even created religious systems on a thousand worlds to "control" the various populations.

Everyone seems to be coming to similar conclusions. However, if they were truly what were called angels then how has that manipulated people ? I dont doubt that they probably appeared on hundreds of worlds posing as angelic beings for their own reasons, but how does that manipulate ?

To me angels are just a myth or legend. Something to be in awe of, or to inspire you. My view is they took these forms simply as a disguise to visit the worlds they were nurturing. Not to manipulate people but to slowly prepare their subconcious for something greater, and more importantly, to make sure they did not fall into shadow. Either way I dont think this would 'control' people, it would simply leave them wondering in amazment. After all, we dont worship angels, we just asume they come from heaven where our god lives. If there were no angels it would not impact our religion or beliefs much at all.

If there was any suspicion of manipulation it would simply be at a genetic level to create telepaths for the next war.

[sixpence]

Originally posted by Vir
Everyone seems to be coming to similar conclusions. However, if they were truly what were called angels then how has that manipulated people ? I dont doubt that they probably appeared on hundreds of worlds posing as angelic beings for their own reasons, but how does that manipulate?

Vir,

Respectfully, the following depends on your individual religious philosophy, and belief system, whether you are Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Agnostic, or something else altogether:

In the Judeo/Christian Holy Scriptures, The "angel of the Lord" is dispatched several times during battles involving the Israelites. "He" is sent to destroy the enemies of God. Similarly, The angel of the Lord is sent during the Egyptian captivity of the Israelites during the tenth plague that befalls Egypt. The killing of the first born and marking of the doorposts and lintels with lambs blood for protection by the Israelites before the angel of death passes by has become known as Passover.
Additionally, it was an angel that escourted Adam and Eve out of Eden after they were banished.

In the New Testament:
it is an angel that visits Mary and instructs her to name her child Jesus.
It is an angel that informs Mary that Christ is risen from the empty tomb.
The book of Revelation is replete with references to angels, most notably in pouring out bowls of suffering on mankind during the tribulation.

I think this short list, (and there are many other instances) offers proof that angels have shaped or at least augmented Judaism and Christianity.
In all of these cases, think of a Vorlon in each of these roles disguised as an angel...is it not a frightening concept?

Lastly, In the Babylon 5 universe, remember that two Vorlons in angelic form flanked Valen/Sinclair when he was found by those two Minbari. They gave Valen/Sinclair a certain validity, or sense of importance, if not a sacredness.

We know that the Vorlons have been to Earth many times, and had a listen post on Venus so they could have assumed all of these roles in our history. (fictionally of course!)

Cheers!

[sixpence]

Originally posted by MALCOLM XERXESÖ
SIXPENCE,

I had not encountered that term before, "Battlecrab"....

...I like it!

Yes I thought so too, though I an unable to take credit for it, it came from others.

But thanks for the encouragement!

Cheers!

[grumbler]

Originally posted by sixpence
Yes I thought so too, though I an unable to take credit for it, it came from others.

But thanks for the encouragement!

Cheers!

I would dearly love to know who DID invent the term, though. JMS's messages show it was in use in 1996, and by 1997 he is calling them that himself (and ack'ing that the rest of the crew does as well). A google of the term is impossibly long... It seems clear that one of the Grid Epsilon Irregulars is probably the culprit, but WHO?

Joe DeM, you have lots of arcane knowledge - any of it cover this?

[Jan]

Sixpence wrote:

I think this short list, (and there are many other instances) offers proof that angels have shaped or at least augmented Judaism and Christianity.
In all of these cases, think of a Vorlon in each of these roles disguised as an angel...is it not a frightening concept?

And there's some indication that such might have been the case in the B5 universe. Remember in the episode "Dust to Dust", we see Kosh leaving the room where G'Kar had his vision of G'Lan and his father. G'Kar goes on to become a religious figure to his people. One has to ask, would he have had the change of heart that he did without that vision of the 'angelic' G'Lan?

I love this show!!

Jan

[grumbler]

Re: THE VORLONS as ANGELS

Originally posted by MALCOLM XERXESÖ
...I disagree with your charge that they ômanipulated the lesser races into thinking that they wereö angelic on the basis that LONDO MOLLARI saw ônothingö holding CAPTAIN SHERIDAN.

I always wondered what exactly Mollari DID see. Did he see Sheridan falling and then bouyed up by an invisible force? Or did he actually see something else and just refuse to believe his eyes?

I have always been inclined towards the latter, and JMS's comment on the issue "Londo saw what he said he saw" seems to support this, but it would be fun to know!

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Jan
Sixpence wrote:


And there's some indication that such might have been the case in the B5 universe. Remember in the episode "Dust to Dust", we see Kosh leaving the room where G'Kar had his vision of G'Lan and his father. G'Kar goes on to become a religious figure to his people. One has to ask, would he have had the change of heart that he did without that vision of the 'angelic' G'Lan?

I love this show!!

Jan

I think it is pretty clear that he would not have had the change of heart. After all, for the rest of seasons 3 and 4 he is pretty much just saying what Kosh said to him as his "revelation." After he suffers at the hands of Cartagia, he gets an even deeper understanding of things... but he probably wouldn't have had them had he not been exposed to Kosh's teachings in DtD.

I would have to say that when we evaluate the Vorlons, we almost have to treat Kosh as a seperate factor, because he wasn't very "Vorlonish" in so many ways.

[Dr Maturin]

<<I would have to say that when we evaluate the Vorlons, we almost have to treat Kosh as a seperate factor, because he wasn't very "Vorlonish" in so many ways.>>

As I stated.

[Dr Maturin]

I found some interesting verses from the Holy Bible that could be associated with the whole Vorlon thing. And then the Londo thing. Well, to be honest, this first verse found me one night when I woke up after dozing off with the TV on and a black preacher was on TV reading this passage.

Here it is:

From I Corinthians chapter 2:

I was with you in (4) weakness and in (5) fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were (6) not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of (7) the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on (8) the power of God.
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are (9) mature; a wisdom, however, not of (10) this age nor of the rulers of (11) this age, who are (12) passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a (13) mystery, the hidden wisdom which God (14) predestined before the (15) ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom (16) which none of the rulers of (17) this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified (18) the Lord of glory;

Very interesting indeed. This next short passage I came across while researching the former. I think it's downright parallel to Londo's reaction in The Fall Of Night:

Hebrews chapter 11:

1 Now faith is the (1) assurance of things (2) hoped for, the conviction of (3) things not seen.
2 For by it the (4) men of old (5) gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the (6) worlds were prepared (7) by the word of God, so that what is seen (8) was not made out of things which are visible.

Interesting.

[sixpence]

Originally posted by Jan

And there's some indication that such might have been the case in the B5 universe. Remember in the episode "Dust to Dust", we see Kosh leaving the room where G'Kar had his vision of G'Lan and his father. G'Kar goes on to become a religious figure to his people. One has to ask, would he have had the change of heart that he did without that vision of the 'angelic' G'Lan?

I love this show!!

Jan

Jan,

Nice tie-in. Thanks! I think the scene with Kosh speaking to G'Kar in the form of his father is eloquent proof that the Vorlons have monkeyed around with spirtual/religious matters for millennia. In the ominous, somewhat immortal words of Kosh, "I have always been here." Well while he's alway been here, how many times, and in how many places has he appeared as an angel, doing Vorlon business? Not to mention, this meeting with Kosh/G'Lan gives G'Kar the epiphany that starts him off on his renewed spiritual journey.

What a captivating concept, the Vorlons initiating (or refining) the religious systems of the Humans, Narns, Minbari, Centauri, Pak Mara, Game, Drazi, etc., etc., etc., on a thousand worlds!!

Does it not boggle the mind?

Cheers! Oh and I love this show too!

[LytaaaarGh]

Re: THE VORLONS as ANGELS

Originally posted by MALCOLM XERXESÖ
[color=red]DOCTORMANBOT,

I disagree with your charge that they ômanipulated the lesser races into thinking that they wereö angelic on the basis that LONDO MOLLARI saw ônothingö holding CAPTAIN SHERIDAN.

color]

I assumed that to be going along with the whole good/evil - God/Devil thing.

using no particular religion as an example. most religions pertain to the order and beauty that the vorlons tried to instill on the worlds they visited. Be kind to your neighbour don't kill etc. Now but also these religions at least in the past, had quite strong punishments for disobedience (like the Vorlon representation).

The shadows who teach progression through conflict and chaos and basic darwinism would be seen as for example, like the devil, the dark one, who is in conflict with 'God' . Where the Volons had hold over a planet, not only would they teach thier 'Way' of living but also teach that the other 'way' (shadows') was wrong and evil and therefore would be represented and portrayed like that on that planet. Thus this insinuates, for example, that Earth would have been within the Vorlon zone of influence. Conversley the Drakh home planet would be in the Shadows zone influence, probably with religions based upon them (they probably saw the Vorlons as evil).

So when Londo saw nothing in the garden, I had assumed it was because he had been touched/tainted by the shadows. Much like in religion if you lose your soul to the devil, you cannot see the beauty of God or won't go to heavan or whatever.

Also remember that most of the time all the earthers/other beings in the Vorlons sphere of influence, couldn't see the Shadows that were with Morden, but he could see them.

Both species have the ability to be seen by who they want when they want. Hence all the different races seeing something different and Londo seeing nothing.

sorry if that was all a bit babbled
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry wrote that at the end of page 1 not realizing there was a whole page 2 thread to read!
It's still relevant i guess thouh most all the points have been covered.
ps i love the show and this is killing me cos i haven't seen it for aaaaages, i've been saving up my time and now im waiting for my friends to start watching....I dont even remember some of the stuff you guys are talking about in the 4th season its been so long... arrgh!

[Dr Maturin]

<<Both species have the ability to be seen by who they want when they want. Hence all the different races seeing something different and Londo seeing nothing.>>

Oddly enough, what you suggest makes sense, even with the scene in In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum, where John sees the Shadows in Morden's room. But maybe he saw them because the cam saw them, not John directly...or...we're just grasping for straws here.