Two things you don't talk about...

[SammyJ]

Originally posted by Radhil
I'd be a liar if I said I didn't have some feeling in that regard a while back, but no.

Stop tossing darts at my personality dartboard guys. Needless to say it was personal. Keyword was. I'd rather Sammy take shots at what I said rather than attacking and digging for a vague bad trait that no longer applies. It's bad form, not to mention off topic.

Radhil, I sincerely apologize if I dug up any bad memories. It was not my intention. I was just poking fun at you. (I guess I was a little ticked off at you ripping my post apart) Again, I'm sorry, and I hope there's no hard feelings.

SammyJ

[Jan]

To the lefties: Say you had a job you loved. Had worked years up the ladder to achieve, and you were the best at it. Your boss respected you and told you so. Then because of policy hatched by bureaucrats somewhere, a less qualified minority was promoted right over you-If you tell me you would not have the slightest ill will toward the policy, the person, and yes, even a little toward his race, I'm sorry but I wouldn't believe you.

Believe what you will, but my honest answer is: Toward the policy - yes; toward the person - possibly, maybe even probably; toward the race - for pity's sake *why*??

Here's where I have trouble understanding bigotry - I have no 'cultural identity' that I've been able to locate so I find that people who've got lots of ego invested in being (insert label describing race, color, creed, party, orientation, etc., etc. here) a curiosity but that's about it. I seem to have a blind spot in that direction.

And just to try to bring this post even slightly 'on topic' I can't think of any character on B5 that wasn't heavily invested in being or identifying with a label. Earth force officer, Russian, Jew, Minbari, (every other race), whatever. Sad, that.

Jan

[Radhil]

Originally posted by SammyJ
Radhil, I sincerely apologize if I dug up any bad memories. It was not my intention. I was just poking fun at you. (I guess I was a little ticked off at you ripping my post apart) Again, I'm sorry, and I hope there's no hard feelings.

SammyJ

What I figured. Was gonna let it lie, but then Star picked at it (OmahaStar, you're fired, pack and go home ) *shrug* Gracias. We're good.

[SammyJ]

Jan, I was ready to fire off a response to comments you made about my original post (I even started writing one), but you know what?...you're right. Lets get back on-topic. This thread started out with such a great idea, and went so horribly wrong somewhere along the way. Oh well, what can we expect when we have such a diverse group of people discussing religion and politics.

There's a scene in B5 (can't remember which episode) when Ivanova is in C&C, they are jettisoning a bunch of coffins of the starfury pilots killed in action into the sun, and she says a sort of prayer like-"We came from the stars, we return to the stars..." I don't know if this qualifies as religion, but I always thought that was a really cool scene. (kinda leaves a lump in your throat) Anybody remember which episode this was?

BTW, I started watching the DVDs from the beginning again, but I only watch one a night, very late at night. (since B5, when first run in the city I used to live, was on very late at night) I'm sort of trying to recapture what it felt like, and so far it's working very well. It might sound stupid, but I really look forward to my 11:30pm viewing.

Sincerely, SammyJ

[Radhil]

Originally posted by SammyJ
[There's a scene in B5 (can't remember which episode) when Ivanova is in C&C, they are jettisoning a bunch of coffins of the starfury pilots killed in action into the sun, and she says a sort of prayer like-"We came from the stars, we return to the stars..." I don't know if this qualifies as religion, but I always thought that was a really cool scene. (kinda leaves a lump in your throat) Anybody remember which episode this was?

Pretty sure - Ceremonies of Light and Dark, season 3. The episode immediately after Severed Dreams.

Wouldn't know if it's a religious mark or not - my guess is not. Military navies often have burials at sea, with a similar turn of phrase ("we commit these souls to the deep" I think Ivanova uses, and it'd work just as well on a ship here on modern Earth). Although I'd imagine it's less common nowadays. I'd call it just tradition, if a very solemn one.

BTW, I started watching the DVDs from the beginning again, but I only watch one a night, very late at night. (since B5, when first run in the city I used to live, was on very late at night) I'm sort of trying to recapture what it felt like, and so far it's working very well. It might sound stupid, but I really look forward to my 11:30pm viewing.

Hardly stupid. It's all about the magic.

[Jan]

There's a scene in B5 (can't remember which episode) when Ivanova is in C&C, they are jettisoning a bunch of coffins of the starfury pilots killed in action into the sun, and she says a sort of prayer like-"We came from the stars, we return to the stars..." I don't know if this qualifies as religion, but I always thought that was a really cool scene. (kinda leaves a lump in your throat) Anybody remember which episode this was?

I always liked that scene, too. I'm pretty sure it's from 'Severed Dreams' but I'll check when I get home. The returning the bodies to the stars reminded me of what Delenn said one time about us being starstuff. I liked the symetry.

BTW, I started watching the DVDs from the beginning again, but I only watch one a night, very late at night. (since B5, when first run in the city I used to live, was on very late at night) I'm sort of trying to recapture what it felt like, and so far it's working very well. It might sound stupid, but I really look forward to my 11:30pm viewing.

Sounds like fun. One of the cool things about turning people on to B5 is reclaiming some of the excitement that we used to feel. I don't think it sounds stupid at all! Over on RASTB5M, I always like to ask new posters how they discovered B5.

Jan

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Radhil
Wouldn't know if it's a religious mark or not - my guess is not. Military navies often have burials at sea, with a similar turn of phrase ("we commit these souls to the deep" I think Ivanova uses, and it'd work just as well on a ship here on modern Earth). Although I'd imagine it's less common nowadays. I'd call it just tradition, if a very solemn one.

Yep. I remember that when a ship I was on, USS Berkely, was scheduled to go through the Sunda Straits between Java and Sumatra in 1979, I discovered that the US Navy had never held a burial service for the crew of USS Houston (CA-30) sunk there in February, 1942 (though ironically the Japanese, who had sunk her, had done so). I suggested that we find the wreck using sonar and do so. And this was done. We manned the rail at 11:00 or so PM and played taps and laid a wreath. All this despite the fact that neither I, nor the Co or Xo, was particularly religious. It had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with tradition.

"We have fed our sea for a thousand years
And she calls us, still unfed,
Though there's never a wave of all her waves
But marks our [English] dead:
We have strawed our best to the weed's unrest,
To the shark and the sheering gull.
If blood be the price of admiralty,
Lord God, we ha' paid in full!"

[Jan]

I was wrong about the episode; it was the one right after "Severed Dreams", #311 "Ceremonies of Light and Dark". I'm going to transcribe a portion of the script for you:

SHERIDAN (CONT'D)
That truth honors and sanctifies our fallen comrades who made the ultimate sacrifice so that we might carry on the work that is ahead of us. We are gathered here today to honor their memory and their names.

He nods to Ivanova, who discretely toggles her link.

CORWIN and the Dome Techs are ready as the signal comes.

CORWIN
Preparing for solar insertion.
Launch. (he does)
Atten-hut!
They come to attention.

On Ivanova as she steps forward.

IVANOVA
Hamilton. Rodriguez. Spinelli. Singh. Osterman.

At first we see nothing then, one after another, comes a line of powered tubes, carrying those who died defending Babylon 5. They come forward like a procession of black pearls, one after another after another.

Ivanova (VO)
Massie. Indari. Cooper. Kim. Nagashima. Lietz. Mankowski.

SHERIDAN (VO)
From the stars we came, and to the stars we return, from now unto the end of time.

As the ceremony continues.

SHERIDAN
We therefore commit these bodies to the deep.

As a mixed starfury squadron, executing the Missing Man formation, flies beside the long black line, then breaks away. We HOLD on the coffins until we lose sight of them in the light of Epsilon Eridani, which WHITES US OUT into

the next scene.

Not a hint of what's usually suggested as religious but a moving ceremony full of dignity and meaning that does honor to the fallen. Just beautiful.

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

I think the big problem with what remains of strained race relations these days is a few ignorant people mess everything up and stir the pot, so to speak. You get a group of toothless KKK and they do something to anger blacks and Jews and so they in turn in an act of temporary insanity HATE all whites. It happened in the town next to one where I was born in the late 70's. A group of white guys beat up a Mexican guy. The next day, 100 Mexicans walked through the predominantly white school and beat the tar out of every white person they came across. They just walked and beat. Then, the whole white community was outraged. This was when Latin-Americans were first moving into Northern California in large masses. It just starts a chain reaction.

And every race has its own firebrands that like to stir up problems under the guise if fighting for "rights," which is only as a front for their own profit.

I myself have never been racist, not even in those "temporary insanity" moments. But even so, I don't kiss anyone's butt to prove I am not racist, either. If some jerk pulls out in front of me and almost kills me, he will get the bird if he's white, black, Asian or if its a woman. I have had many many black friends over the years, growing up in an area with many blacks, and one thing that I've learned is that they hate it more when whites try to act all nice, instead of coming out saying how they really feel. They say they get a feeling like the white person is acting out of fear, not out of genuine kindness. I myself am a straightforward guy. This one guy at work now (I don't live in CA anymore) is almost twice my age and raised in the deep south. He thinks slave reparations are good. I told him I disagreed and he said it was because I am racist (I think he was half-joking). So I told him to let me tell him why I don't agree with them and then see if he still thought that. A lot of people would get that feeling that they must immediately exonerate themselves of accused racism. I mean, if someone wants to think I am racist, homophobic (that term doesn't make sense anyway) or sexist, then more power to them, because I know I am not and intelligent people willing to listen will know the truth. Most of my friends from the time I was 18-22 were black conservatives. When I'd meet black people in college, they'd be surprised that I had black friends, because I didn't seem like the typical white guy with black friends.

So, I think the main problem with race relations is stereotyping and the whole "temporary insanity" brought on when you hear someone of a different race say or do something negative against yours. You just have to learn to know he isn't speaking for the entire race like a hive mind. That's called true equal treatment.

[Jan]

And the connection to Babylon 5 in all this is...what?

Jan

[Dr Maturin]

<<And the connection to Babylon 5 in all this is...what?>>

Um...

kOsH rULz!!!!!1111

[colonyearth]

As some of you may have noticed...I've been mysteriously missing from this conversation for a bit. Please, be ye not alarmed...I simply fried a synapse. Once it has been repaired and I've accomplished some legitimate work on my film...I shall rejoin in ernest. Until then, I read and most of it washes over me.

My mind is a puddle of goo, thinking about, cutting, re-cutting, and creating my film in my whittle head....I'm quite frankly going bonkers. Let me tell you, it's a fun place to visit but I'm not sure that I would want to take up full-time residency.

Jan, is it you or Aisling who has the background in the legal woes of music and entertainment? If it's you PM me, if it's Aisling..well...PM me.

Radhill, you're a doll, and if you were a hot gay guy...I'd ask you to marry me.

ZHDD, I'm getting to know you better and better each time I read what you have to say. Still not sure I'm with you all the way on some things, but you're great guy...that much I can see.

Omahastar, you're such the queen....and I love ya for it!
And I haven't forgotten the DVD's for JUMPER...they'll be out this week if I have to kidnap Tyler to get him to sign them.

Nasty queen, get those thoughts out of your head that I know just popped in.


In a short time, you've all become a little family to me...thoughts and words, processes and dreamings...all bled from me by images you've brought to both my consciousness and sub-conscious. THANK YOU!

What does all of this have to with B5 and it's political and religious structure, metaphor, and theory? Well, in my simple view, what I've just said to all of you...that's what B5 was all about.

LOVE
Tony

[Radhil]

Originally posted by colonyearth
Radhill, you're a doll, and if you were a hot gay guy...I'd ask you to marry me.

You'd have to learn to spell my name right first, dearie.

Luck to your project.

[Jan]

Paging Aisling!

Originally posted by colonyearth

Jan, is it you or Aisling who has the background in the legal woes of music and entertainment? If it's you PM me, if it's Aisling..well...PM me.

It's Aisling. Maybe my putting her name on the subject will help get her attention.

Jan

[OmahaStar]

Originally posted by colonyearth
Omahastar, you're such the queen....and I love ya for it!
And I haven't forgotten the DVD's for JUMPER...they'll be out this week if I have to kidnap Tyler to get him to sign them.

Nasty queen, get those thoughts out of your head that I know just popped in.

Me? What kind of thoughts would that result from a statement like that? "kidnap Tyler" ... hmmmm ... I do have a full size basement available ...

And I hope so! It's been forever .. Tyler really is on gay time, isn't he?