Two things you don't talk about...

[circularREASON]

Even though I do not believe in god, ( I have seen many things to make me come to this conclusion ) does this make me the enemy to the people who do. ( most of my family are christians ) This is my own personal belief. I do not intend to persuade others to follow. My opinions are my opinions.

[WRTWORTHY]

Originally posted by colonyearth
Actually it was ZHDD that started this thread if I'm correct, so I guess that gives him some latitude in how far "off topic" it goes. Personally, I find this all fascinating and the conversation very stimulating. Besides, we are talking about politics and religion as relating to B5...almost everything we've discussed was in B5 in some way either openly or metaphorically.

CE

The Points i have been makeing is the same points the Homegaurd, Nightwatch and P clark (but useing Alines) and i feel JMS was trying to explain this in babylon 5, telling us what can happen if things get out of control and the Far right take over. Secondly in the book "creating Babylon 5" the actors talk about Rasism in US citys and may i add that the actors like the way babylon 5 talks about this, yet for a strange reason the Fans dont want to talk about it, is this is becuase its a taboo subject and no wants to belive what is going on?

Also for all Uk People, please join the Gavin Hopley campaign all at least find out what it is becuse it proves the point i have been makeing.

[colonyearth]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jan
[B]What he showed was what could happen if people allowed themselves to be frightened and give up freedoms for the sake of security.


[QUOTE]

Exactly...he was illustrating how fear and the mob mentallity can cause people to freely abandon liberties in hopes of feeling more safe and secure in their daily lives (as has happened today in the US). This is, of course, a fallacy...an impossibility. For if we are truly free, if we are individuals, then there will always be some horror that will occur, some tragedy around the corner. It is, simply the way if things.

You can say it's not fair, or you can be like Marcus who simply accepted that bad things happen because to say the universe wasn't fair was to imply that he had done something to deserve fairness or unfairness. (One of my favorite moments in the series by the way.) We can be free, and accept that sometimes bad people are going to do bad things...or we can give up our freedom and simply allow those bad people to eventually come to absolute power....then we'll overthrow them and say, "never again" and teh whole damn thing starts over.

We could, on the other hand, retain our freedom and diversity, accept that things are going to happen and that it's simply impossible to stop every bad thing from happening, and realize that the most important thing is how we, as race, as humanity, respond to those awful, terrible moments.

It's been said that "freedom comes with a price." Yes, it does. And that price is that you have to let others be free as well -- and that in doing so, they will be free to do bad things sometimes. But you can't stop everyone from being free to curtail the bad folks. That's like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Punishing everyone for the crimes of one or two. Yes, true freedom...is a scary thing...because it means you have to give up your power to control other people's freedom.

Think about it.

Peace.

CE

[WRTWORTHY]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by colonyearth
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Jan
What he showed was what could happen if people allowed themselves to be frightened and give up freedoms for the sake of security.

Exactly...he was illustrating how fear and the mob mentallity can cause people to freely abandon liberties in hopes of feeling more safe and secure in their daily lives (as has happened today in the US). This is, of course, a fallacy...an impossibility. For if we are truly free, if we are individuals, then there will always be some horror that will occur, some tragedy around the corner. It is, simply the way if things.

You can say it's not fair, or you can be like Marcus who simply accepted that bad things happen because to say the universe wasn't fair was to imply that he had done something to deserve fairness or unfairness. (One of my favorite moments in the series by the way.) We can be free, and accept that sometimes bad people are going to do bad things...or we can give up our freedom and simply allow those bad people to eventually come to absolute power....then we'll overthrow them and say, "never again" and teh whole damn thing starts over.

We could, on the other hand, retain our freedom and diversity, accept that things are going to happen and that it's simply impossible to stop every bad thing from happening, and realize that the most important thing is how we, as race, as humanity, respond to those awful, terrible moments.

It's been said that "freedom comes with a price." Yes, it does. And that price is that you have to let others be free as well -- and that in doing so, they will be free to do bad things sometimes. But you can't stop everyone from being free to curtail the bad folks. That's like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Punishing everyone for the crimes of one or two. Yes, true freedom...is a scary thing...because it means you have to give up your power to control other people's freedom.

Think about it.

Peace.

CE

This is, of course, a fallacy...an impossibility.

Intresting, you say, impossible? 1930's Germany -Modern day german socity with a advanced form of Decomracy and the NAZI'S came to power, and they dident take power, they was voted in by the population.

They did This by getting into Politics (much like the far right groups today) Thye blamed the jews for germanys promblems and then with a major event (the great depression/the rightstarg fire) used a event to inflame the population and get them elected, once voted in they then got rid of decomarcy but they was VOTED in.

This has happend and you must be blind to the world if you think this can not happen again, MAY I REMIND you off Yugoslav and the Kosavo war!

Bbaylon 5 P Clark is very similer to the Nazi's and JMS tells the tale of what can happen if we let.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing

[colonyearth]

Originally posted by WRTWORTHY
This is, of course, a fallacy...an impossibility.

Intresting, you say, impossible? 1930's Germany -Modern day german socity with a advanced form of Decomracy and the NAZI'S came to power, and they dident take power, they was voted in by the population.

They did This by getting into Politics (much like the far right groups today) Thye blamed the jews for germanys promblems and then with a major event (the great depression/the rightstarg fire) used a event to inflame the population and get them elected, once voted in they then got rid of decomarcy but they was VOTED in.

This has happend and you must be blind to the world if you think this can not happen again, MAY I REMIND you off Yugoslav and the Kosavo war!

Bbaylon 5 P Clark is very similer to the Nazi's and JMS tells the tale of what can happen if we let.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing

Ok, back up and read what I said. The examply you used to counter my argument, actually goes to support my argument. The people of germany were caught up in the "mob mentality". Hitler and the Nazi Party used fear and the tools of hatred to create a scapegoat for Germany's problems at the time. This is how Hitler and the Nazi party rose to power.

My point exactly. Fear and hatred, the mob mentality is exactly how the Nazis gained power, they convinced the people that if they would freely give up their freedoms and liberty to them, then they would take care of the Jews and take care of the problem. Before they knew it...the holocaust had occured and it is an event the majority of Germans to this day are ashamed of...because they fell prey to this exact phenomena to which I'm referring.

Therefore, my statement that giving up liberty and freedom in order to make one feel safer is a bad thing...nothing can ever make things 100% safe or perfect....especially in a truly free society...one for which we claim to strive .

Did you not read what I said? Read it again...and if you still don't get it...perhap I can find a better way of explaining it.

CE

[Jan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondly in the book "creating Babylon 5" the actors talk about Rasism in US citys and may i add that the actors like the way babylon 5 talks about this, yet for a strange reason the Fans dont want to talk about it, is this is becuase its a taboo subject and no wants to belive what is going on?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, what Claudia said is that she liked the way the show depicted that racism (species-ism?) won't go away overnight and that she thought the show was realistic in that way. She continued on to give her own opinion about racism which is immaterial to the show itself.

Nobody here has said that the show didn't depict that racism exists. The point of the show was was that, yes, it exists but that doesn't make it a good thing or in any way right.

The Clark faction of B5 went out of it's way to frighten the people of Earth so that it was easy for them when it came to taking complete power. From the very beginning we heard on ISN about growing concerns over 'alien influence'. Over and over we heard about how 'aliens' were responsible for everything that went wrong. Sounds a *lot* like some of the bilge spouted on this group lately. <whine> I'ts not my fault, it's all those other folks out to get me. I can't get a job; I'm discriminated against. </whine> Some advice: Get over it, move if you have to, learn something valuable to an employer and take responsibility for your own life without blaming anybody else.

Face it, everybody in politics has an agenda - right, left, middle, green, (purple), polka-dots...*everybody*. Most of the rest of us are just trying to make it as best we can and just want to be left alone to do it. It's up to you to listen to and read as many different opinions as you can in order to form an informed opinion on issues, then vote accordingly. If you don't, you're criminally negligent.

My, where'd this soapbox come from? <g>

Jan

[grumbler]

Jan, you make good points and make them in a way that relates them to the show. Your post is a model for how I think we should approach these kinds of discussions on a board about B5.

CE, I don't agree that ZD has any "right" to direct the conversation off-topic because he started an interesting thread. I have absolutely NO problems with discussing the way current events relate to the topics of the series, or how the events of the time affected JMS's writing as he did the series.

What I tire of is people making explitly current-political statements in the guise of (and sometimes without even the guise of) "relating" them to B5.

A general discussion of security vs liberty (a theme of the series) is fine. Using current examples is fine. making blanket statements about what the "Patriot Act" or whatever IS, and then veneering it with a passing irrelevant mention of babylon 5 is simply conducting an OT discussion in disguise, and all that I ask is that this be done in a forum specifically set aside for that.

I am a huge participant in several fora that deal largely with these kinds of issues (and I always use this pen-name, so you can google to find them, I suppose), but I come here (and to B5TV.com) to discuss B5 as a relief from those other sites 9and go to them to get relief from here! ).

Surely it isn't too much to ask that people make the B5 presentation the key to their argument, rather than a "nod to convention"?

I find JMS's writings, frankly, to be "deeper" than 99.9% of all political statements, and so would like to stay focussed on them. Both religion and politics in B5 are as interesting to me as the way a Starfury enters the station, and so I would love to have a discussion about either or both. But if we are to be locked into the stances of the current politics and religion, then we can never get into any deeper into the B5 world because we will be taliking about ourselves and not the "vision."

To quote a wise person, "My, where'd this soapbox come from? <g>"

[colonyearth]

Originally posted by grumbler
Jan, you make good points and make them in a way that relates them to the show. Your post is a model for how I think we should approach these kinds of discussions on a board about B5.

CE, I don't agree that ZD has any "right" to direct the conversation off-topic because he started an interesting thread. I have absolutely NO problems with discussing the way current events relate to the topics of the series, or how the events of the time affected JMS's writing as he did the series.

What I tire of is people making explitly current-political statements in the guise of (and sometimes without even the guise of) "relating" them to B5.

A general discussion of security vs liberty (a theme of the series) is fine. Using current examples is fine. making blanket statements about what the "Patriot Act" or whatever IS, and then veneering it with a passing irrelevant mention of babylon 5 is simply conducting an OT discussion in disguise, and all that I ask is that this be done in a forum specifically set aside for that.

I am a huge participant in several fora that deal largely with these kinds of issues (and I always use this pen-name, so you can google to find them, I suppose), but I come here (and to B5TV.com) to discuss B5 as a relief from those other sites 9and go to them to get relief from here! ).

Surely it isn't too much to ask that people make the B5 presentation the key to their argument, rather than a "nod to convention"?

I find JMS's writings, frankly, to be "deeper" than 99.9% of all political statements, and so would like to stay focussed on them. Both religion and politics in B5 are as interesting to me as the way a Starfury enters the station, and so I would love to have a discussion about either or both. But if we are to be locked into the stances of the current politics and religion, then we can never get into any deeper into the B5 world because we will be taliking about ourselves and not the "vision."

To quote a wise person, "My, where'd this soapbox come from? <g>"

I was only defending his right to say what he wants...people respond and a conversation goes where it will. One of the things I love about deep conversation is that it can start with a topic and by the time (usually several hours later since my conversations like this usually go way into the morning hours)you're finished talking and ready to pass out asleep you find you've discussed everything from religion and philosophy to where you think there will be mosquitos on Mars after we colonize it, because if there aren't then I'm there.

Bottom line...I fully agree with you that JMS is a genius and what's contained in B5 goes much deeper than I think most people ever really see or wish to see. There are layers and layers of belief and theory and cosmology placed within a tale of struggle, lesson and overcoming our weaknesses as humans while battling against the darkness.

If you really want me to launch into it all...the many ideologies of the show that I've discovered or have even come to believe to some degree, then I can....


CE

[Dr Maturin]

<<The FCC is simply reacting to what it perceives as public outcry. Sadly, this happens all the time due to mob mentally and will pass. We shouldn't censor...anything.>>

Don't get me wrong. I don't think we should just air whatever whenever...the networks should have to tact to condemn something like the Janet thing, when they know millions upon millions of people were watching. And they did. But the GOVERNMENT shouldn't pry into censorship. I'm sure they didn't know what Janet and Little Justin had in mind, but they should think twice next year (I believe NFL has already told Viacom no more MTV halftimes) when it comes to hiring certain artists. But yeah, when I watch certain things on TV, I send the kids to bed or whatever. When they are the right age (14, 15) they can choose what they want to watch. I am their censor, because I am their parent, not the gubment. And I censor myself, too. I don't want to watch Faces of Death 20, but if Joe Smith down the street wants to, hey, more power to ya.

What I find ponderous is that in the UK they can show naked stuff (correct me if I'm wrong) but violence is not as accepted, especially something like a scene of a man beating on a woman.

[Dr Maturin]

Oops, one more thing...

I think it is a travesty that Playmakers was canceled due to NFL's crying. I don't even like football and I never even saw the show, but it was a cash cow and fans loved it. The NFL was simply the naked emperor in this case. It's sad that ESPN caved into them, especially since there are rumors NFL is getting a FEW channels of their own, hence making ESPN obsolete to their uses. It would be cute if they brought the show back in that event, and had an episode about the league canceling a show like Playmakers. Intentional irony.

[colonyearth]

Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
<<The FCC is simply reacting to what it perceives as public outcry. Sadly, this happens all the time due to mob mentally and will pass. We shouldn't censor...anything.>>

What I find ponderous is that in the UK they can show naked stuff (correct me if I'm wrong) but violence is not as accepted, especially something like a scene of a man beating on a woman.

In Europe in general sex and nudity are given little to no thought on television. To them it's simply what it is. A beautiful act or a naked breast or whatever. But to them violence is the atrocity. Especially graffic or gratuetus violence.

To me it's always been a curious thing that the people of the US get so worked up over sex and nudity, but love to see people get blown away nightly on TV. It would seem to me that our priorities are way out of wack. In most European countries they only have a murder or two a year, violence is unusual to them...sex is natural and celebrated not that nasty thing the bible tells you is bad, which is the puritanical view in the US.

Don't we have these things backwards? Maybe if we worried more about guns and violence on TV and in our streets and less about who's naked and who's screwing who, things might just get a little bit nicer. Come on, one is about sharing your body and soul, the other is about, well...killing it.

Yep, we're screwed on backwards in this country. At least most of it is...I'm not. I didn't see any big hoopla about Janet's boob being seen. Who cares, who did it hurt? Was there some mental anquish caused to any children? NO. They probably have already seen a breast, the problem is their parents probably don't know that since sex and nudity is such a taboo in this country. Perhaps that's why our teenage pregnancy rate is higher than Europe's is. They talk about sex and such like it's no big deal, no stigma. So they learn younger and faster how to treat it, instead of running around behind the barn with Billy Joe and dropping your panties cause Sue is under pressure not to be a virgin, but Sue can't talk to anyone really about it because GOD they would freak and she has no idea what she's doing, not to mention because it's such a taboo it's a great way to rebel against mom and dad...so HA!...oh shit, wait, I'm what?! Pregnant?! HOW?!

We create controversy, but what is controversial is subjective to what we decide will be controversial. No one was injured because of what Janet did...no one was scarred for life. So what, her boob fell out.

It's fine to play violent games and watch Faces of Death 20 (ick by the way), but god forbid my child sees a breast or something for all of 20 seconds. Son, don't look, run play in the street with the drug dealers.

Yep we're whacked alright.

Oopps, how'd that soapbox get under me?

CE

[grumbler]

Originally posted by grumbler
The show had Muslims but not featured very prominantly. And buddhists were even less evident, though Buddhist thought certainly is not. The rock garden and zen garden are used in seasons 1 and 2.

And I agree that of all the traditional religions, Buddhism is closest to the Minbari belief system (and the closest to what Sebastion was looking for in Delenn, so perhaps the Vorlons have similar beliefs). In particular, it was Delenn's lack of desire for fame (a very buddhist concept) that saved her.

And clearly Minbai beliefs about souls and rebirth are very similar to Buddhism's though not exactly the same (for there is no evidence that the Minbari thought that actions in one life resulted in "rewards" when being reborn). However, they DID apparently believe that the goal of the soul was understanding, which tracks with Buddhism pretty closely.

The religion that interested me in the series was that of the Narn, especially G'Kar's meditations on the teachings of G'Qan (which were themselves not NEARLY well-enough explained for my tastes, but then this was a made-up religions and we cannot hope for TOO much!).

In my mind, G'Kar's spiritual journey was the one that projected the most of JMS's own beliefs onto the screen. The concepts of sacrifice and stoicism are not Buddhist (for they are far too active) but the lack of an underlying "interventionist" god certainly are.

It is a pity JMS couldn't flesh out this idea more thoroughly - his failure to do so is almost certainly the reason why the Narn never make it to "Old One" status, and the dooming of an entire race is a heavy burden for one man!

Great points! I wonder why no one wants to address them and would rather talk about video games than B5?

[Radhil]

Originally posted by grumbler
Great points! I wonder why no one wants to address them and would rather talk about video games than B5?

Dunno, must've been some muttering self-important old geezer that posted them....

Or that maybe this flat-view thread setup helps along the burying of such posts pretty quickly. Don't get your back up just because you're ignored once man - happens to the best of us.

There's few points that's even addressable in that to be honest. There's no real arguement to the Minbari religion at all - it's Buddhism pretty much down pat, with all the emphasis on wisdom, meditation, and enlightenment, just with a lot more ritual nonsense to give it an alien touch. The only thing you can add is that it's a Mahayana form of Buddhism with the emphasis on serving others, as opposed to Theravada - only that's a helluva lot more vague and obscure than most people know about Buddhism. Hell, I only know it because I've been picking up the religion (everyone else - think Protestants and Catholics - same Jesus, different flavors).

One thing that's commentable -

In my mind, G'Kar's spiritual journey was the one that projected the most of JMS's own beliefs onto the screen. The concepts of sacrifice and stoicism are not Buddhist (for they are far too active) but the lack of an underlying "interventionist" god certainly are.

It is a pity JMS couldn't flesh out this idea more thoroughly - his failure to do so is almost certainly the reason why the Narn never make it to "Old One" status, and the dooming of an entire race is a heavy burden for one man!

Odd thing is, for all G'quon's religion wasn't fleshed out, it was almost secondary to what G'kar figured out for himself. So maybe that was JMS's intent all along. Then again, I think a Buddhist would find a lot of things right and proper with G'kar's views. Maybe only suggesting a little more chilling out, but then we'd lose that grinning personality.

G'kar's outlook reminds me of Goodkind's Sword of Truth books actually. I'm told he bases his plots (more like his preachings lately) on Ayn Rand's books, and her Objectivist (sp?) philosophies. That's something I've been meaning to read up on more. Maybe a lot more links here among the "good" religions, the "good" sides to our epics, than I thought.

[Andrew_Swallow]

Originally posted by WRTWORTHY
[B]most Asians are British? since when???????

Since it was the British Empire not the English Empire. (It was not even the United Kingdom Empire.)

The British Empire was a mixture of blacks, browns and yellows.


During the 1950s a lot of films were made that showed Scotsmen complaining about being called English, and demanding to be called British. By English what was actually meant was WASP.

[WRTWORTHY]

Originally posted by Andrew_Swallow
Since it was the British Empire not the English Empire. (It was not even the United Kingdom Empire.)

The British Empire was a mixture of blacks, browns and yellows.


During the 1950s a lot of films were made that showed Scotsmen complaining about being called English, and demanding to be called British. By English what was actually meant was WASP.

HOW DARE YOU! the British empire was great and was WHITE people, like British people, your thinking of the commonwelth and may i remind you blacks and Asians where SLAVES, they wasent part of our empire, they hated it and rose up aganist it, so lets get this right.

and may i remind you of Gavin Hopley!!! please reserch that before you talk about Blacks and Asians being freindly and part of something!