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  • Watch your back, Michael

    My question involves 'Babylon Squared' and 'War Without End 1&2' When the older Sinclair says 'I tried to warn them....'etc at the end of B2 I had always thought that this reffered to the appearence of the space suited man in the central coridoor of B4 gesturing to the young Sinclair. By WWE it turns out it was Delenn in the suit and Sinclair's warning was to the season 1 Garibaldi flying away ('watch your back...'etc). Was it always the intention that this was the warning? Either way why did he say he tried to warn 'them'? I get the feeling that maybe the exact chain of events may have changed between the penning of B2 and WWE. Am I totally wrong? If so was the warning an attempt to help stop the assasination of Santiago? What would be the point of trying to re-write history like this?

  • #2
    'I tried to warn them....
    Well, at that time Sinclair knew he would become Valen. Perhaps he was referring to what he would do in the future, and so must have done in their past.

    Comment


    • #3
      I figure that Sinclair's warning was an effort to try to warn them about Santiago's assassination (in the greater scheme of things, about Garibaldi being shot in the smaller more personal scheme of things), personally.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by therichieboy
        By WWE it turns out it was Delenn in the suit and Sinclair's warning was to the season 1 Garibaldi flying away ('watch your back...'etc). Was it always the intention that this was the warning? Either way why did he say he tried to warn 'them'? I get the feeling that maybe the exact chain of events may have changed between the penning of B2 and WWE. Am I totally wrong? If so was the warning an attempt to help stop the assasination of Santiago? What would be the point of trying to re-write history like this?
        I think it was always intended to be 'watch your back' because it was actually foreshadowed in TKO, when Walker Smith kept telling Michael to watch his back.

        I think what we saw in WWE was not only Sinclair having a moment of weakness, but Delenn as well.

        What Sinclair tried to warn Garibaldi of was exactly when the road to his becoming Valen was set-when Garibaldi was shot and Jeff was called to Earth, then sent to Minbar.

        Delenn, knowing what had to happen, even what *had* happened, still tells Sheridan not to go to Zha'ha'dum because it was there that he would die and she'd only have (at the time she said that) a few more years with him.

        Both scenes were included in the Final Draft of the script which was generally the first one distributed to the cast and crew so it seems likely that they were originally intended.

        I like that we were given those two moments of weakness. I think I mentioned in the 'disrespected' thread that one thing we didn't see much of was the characters angsting and second-guessing themselves but with these two moments we do see them trying, albeit futilely, to escape their destinies.

        Jan
        "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

        Comment


        • #5
          Weakness?

          Originally posted by Jan
          I like that we were given those two moments of weakness. I think I mentioned in the 'disrespected' thread that one thing we didn't see much of was the characters angsting and second-guessing themselves but with these two moments we do see them trying, albeit futilely, to escape their destinies.

          Jan
          Well, I don't think they were trying to escape their destinies, they are both trying to save the persons they care deeply about/love from suffering: Sinclair tries to save Garibaldi and Delenn does the same for Sheridan.

          They're both acting out of love for someone other than themselves.
          I don't know these instants are moments of weakness!
          Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
          John Sheridan

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DeMonk
            Well, I don't think they were trying to escape their destinies, they are both trying to save the persons they care deeply about/love from suffering: Sinclair tries to save Garibaldi and Delenn does the same for Sheridan.
            Now that's an angle I hadn't seen and it's certainly possible. I'd tend to allow it for Delenn, though, moreso than Sinclair. After all, 'old Sinclair' would have already known that Michael would survive being shot in the back. If Garibaldi communicated any lasting trauma, we didn't see it other than the one episode where he temporarily lost confidence in himself. Sheridan's consequences were much greater.

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yeah, that all sounds plausable. I always wanted to beleive it was a moment of weakness from Sinclair even though he knows all ends well. I'd want to try and set things straight if I was dissapearing for all eternity 1000 years into the past and losing all contact with my friends and loved ones- pretty daunting. I just always put 2 and 2 together -assuming that Sinclair was 'The One' in the central coridoor- and came up with 5 obviaously. Did JMS intend for viewers to think this? If so, not entirely sure why.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with the general idea you have put forth that Sinclair was originally the one who was supposed to be in the central corridor touched by "past Sinclair" and having that reaction.

                I have never understood why JMS changed that to Delenn in WWE - that whole trading the spacesuit thing made zero sense to me.
                I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Actually, I think the confusion is in the way the two episodes were edited. In the scripts and in a director's cut tape I've got it's really much easier to see the sequence of events.

                  Jan
                  "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jan
                    Actually, I think the confusion is in the way the two episodes were edited. In the scripts and in a director's cut tape I've got it's really much easier to see the sequence of events.

                    Jan
                    So in the B2 script it was clear that Delenn was the one in the suit that Sinclair touched? That would satisfy me but remove a cool concept of what happens when you meet yourself.
                    I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by grumbler
                      So in the B2 script it was clear that Delenn was the one in the suit that Sinclair touched? That would satisfy me but remove a cool concept of what happens when you meet yourself.
                      Nope, sorry. The editing I was referring to was in the WWE scripts, nothing to do with B Squared. It's just easier to see in the scripts/Director's cut that there's more than one person in the blue suits and that Delenn's having more than just the one time flash.

                      Jan
                      "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'd like to check these scripts out. They'd end years of doubt. It does make sense though. I thought the reason Sinclair went flying when the spacesuited figure touched him, but not Zathras was because of the paradox of meeting himself (a la Doctor Who etc) but looking at it now I suppose it is because Delenn was unstuck in time and giving off all sorts of wierd energy ski ba doo bop.This stuff matters to me.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by therichieboy
                          I'd like to check these scripts out. They'd end years of doubt. It does make sense though. I thought the reason Sinclair went flying when the spacesuited figure touched him, but not Zathras was because of the paradox of meeting himself (a la Doctor Who etc) but looking at it now I suppose it is because Delenn was unstuck in time and giving off all sorts of wierd energy ski ba doo bop.This stuff matters to me.
                          Yep, I thought the same thing (like Sinclairs repel) and was sorry to see that idea go by the board, for seemingly no good reason.
                          I believe that when we leave a place, part of it goes with us and part of us remains. Go anywhere in the station, when it is quiet, and just listen. After a while, you will hear the echoes of all our conversations, every thought and word we've exchanged. Long after we are gone .. our voices will linger in these walls for as long as this place remains. But I will admit .. that the part of me that is going .. will very much miss the part of you that is staying.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You seem to be assuming that it was always the same person who appeared in the blue suit in the central corridor. I don't think that's what happened at all. The only one we know for sure was that it was Delenn who came to help rescue Zathras. In fact, I think it's one of those things JMS left deliberately ambiguous, especially after reading the B Squared intro.

                            Jan
                            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              In B2 Zathras says the guy in the suit sacrificed HIMself to let the others get on with the mission. I believe at the time of writing it was meant to be Sinclair as I imagine the character Sheridan was still a glint in JMS's mind hence the whole Delenn touching Sinclair's arm at the end (they were originally going to be lovers). In WWE Sheridan is sacrificed to the potential oblivion of being unstuck in time which probably would have been what was going to happen to Sinclair before the Sheridan character was created.THat doesn't explain why the spacesuit figure is moaning in a pretty Delennish voice. Maybe the point in having Delenn trade time stabilizers with Sheridan/Sinclair is a further exploration of her willingness to die for the one she loves.

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