→ Random Thoughts

[The Puzzled Pak'Ma'Ra]

... A thread to post utterly random, non-political, Babylon-5 related thoughts and comments.

... I've many observations and comments to make that don't quite fit into the existing strings,... so why not group them all together into a collection of 'Random Thoughts"?


... Two to begin...

"Remember Byron"... ? Why? I'm glad as hell he's dead. Anybody remember that Star Trek OS episode where the hippies looking for Eden come aboard the Enterprise? One of the worst episodes of the series. That's basically how I feel about Byron and all his long-haired flower-children hippie-telepaths. I mean, common, JMS! They're sitting around in Down Below, holding hands and singing, "We will come together..." or some such . . .
... I was hoping like hell Bester would brain-fry the the whole lot of them!

... Then Lyta goes nuts. "Oh, I am SO not appreciated!","The only time people talk to me is when they WANT something" ...
... Maybe she should have dropped her persecution complex and examined her own personality a bit more...

[Ranger1]

First time i saw season 5 i had the same feeling, like, wtf?

But as time went by, and saw that season again, its not that bad.

Its actually more about Lyta than about Byron, its her arc which is the saddest arc of them all if you think about it, a hard working person who left with nothing at all.



Needless to mention that i always fast forward the hippie crap LOL

[Jan]

"Remember Byron"... ? Why? I'm glad as hell he's dead. Anybody remember that Star Trek OS episode where the hippies looking for Eden come aboard the Enterprise? One of the worst episodes of the series. That's basically how I feel about Byron and all his long-haired flower-children hippie-telepaths. I mean, common, JMS! They're sitting around in Down Below, holding hands and singing, "We will come together..." or some such . . .
... I was hoping like hell Bester would brain-fry the the whole lot of them!

I've seen some good arguments to the effect that Byron wasn't supposed to be liked...none of which I can actually remember at the moment. The thing is, the teeps were conditioned, from the moment the Psi Corps got hold of them, to be followers and to revere any really strong telepaths so pretty much anybody who came along and told them what to do was likely to become the leader of a bunch of them.

... Then Lyta goes nuts. "Oh, I am SO not appreciated!","The only time people talk to me is when they WANT something" ...
... Maybe she should have dropped her persecution complex and examined her own personality a bit more...

That one took me completely by surprise the first time but when I went back and watched again, it made perfect sense. Over and over and over people'd come looking for her, desperately needing her help, she'd do whatever and then just get dumped. I'm quite sure it wasn't deliberate on the part of the normals but they never once did more than give her the most cursory of thanks no matter what she did. Of course, it could be that she didn't make much effort to hang out with the rest except for when they were on missions, too...

Jan

[Harrdy]

It's always after somebody passes away (or freaks out) that we know what good we had of him. As long as the person is alive and a friend, you kind of take it granted. And I myself found my situation very similar to Lytas, with me helping as I was riding the rollercoster down into depression... well, I learned I don't have to help people, and when I do I always say what I expect from them. They tend to be puzzled, but if they really need my help, they will accept. I have my limits, and if I go over them helping somebody the least I expect ist that that somebody stops afterwards and says: Thank you...

Regarding the Hippy stuff... I found that the older I get the more I understand it. After I went social phobic for some time I found that if you are not "en vouge" (in one way or another) you are pretty much not interresting for any group of people to hang out with. Also a lot of my friends got children and when I meet them (seldom enough) it's always talking about how "their eyes followed me today" or "she murmured Papa" or something similar. You need something to socialize if you are very different from the people around you, and while I personally expect the world to be cruel and heartless (as that are my experiences with the world) I find it quite nice to hang out with people who could be considered Hippies, singing about "a better place". It is kind of hollidays, if you understand what I mean...

PeAcE

[Jan]

It's always after somebody passes away (or freaks out) that we know what good we had of him. As long as the person is alive and a friend, you kind of take it granted. And I myself found my situation very similar to Lytas, with me helping as I was riding the rollercoster down into depression... well, I learned I don't have to help people, and when I do I always say what I expect from them. They tend to be puzzled, but if they really need my help, they will accept. I have my limits, and if I go over them helping somebody the least I expect ist that that somebody stops afterwards and says: Thank you...

That's a good point, really. Look at G'Kar. He did them a huge favor and he told them what he wanted in return and then he pushed it when they didn't want to give it. So a certain amount of the responsibility does have to rest with Lyta herself. Still, even with all the galactic concerns they all had, somebody could have and should have checked on her afterward or gone to bat for her over the quarters thing. I think it was an unconscious one, but still a prejudice against her because of her telepathic ability.

Jan

[The Puzzled Pak'Ma'Ra]

... Random Observation: (Crusade)

... The armor I see some of the soldiers-types wearing in this series look suspiciously like the battle armor in Starship Troopers... very cool.

... (Babylon 5 Random thought):

... League of Non-Aligned Worlds... League of Nations? Interstellar Alliance... United Nations?
... JMS is obviously aware of history... Maybe I just think too much.

[rallytbk]

"Remember Byron"... ? Why? I'm glad, as hell he's dead. Anybody remember that Star Trek OS episode where the hippies looking for Eden come aboard the Enterprise? One of the worst episodes of the series. That's basically how I feel about Byron and all his long-haired flower-children hippie-telepaths. I mean, common, JMS! They're sitting around in Down Below, holding hands and singing, "We will come together..." or some such . . .
... I was hoping like hell Bester would brain-fry the whole lot of them!

I did feel that the Byron arc in Down Below was too long for my taste, had they concentrated more on ByronÆs relationship with the Psi-corps and Bester I think it would have gone a little better. In addition I enjoyed the episode ôThe Corps is Mother, The Corps is Fatherö I only wish it ByronÆs arc showed more of the inner working of Psi-Corps and the Telepath War.

... Then Lyta goes nuts. "Oh, I am SO not appreciated!öô The only time people talk to me is when they WANT something" ...
... Maybe she should have dropped her persecution complex and examined her own personality a bit more...

It didnÆt surprise me when Lyta vented out (it was a long time coming), what surprised me more was that they had an answer for her that confirmed her feelingsà That sucked big time! ThatÆs like saying ôwhile youÆre here, do this for meà other than that I will tolerate your existenceö Kind of throws a bummer on your feelings.

I guess the only one to open up to her was Zack Allen; the scene from ôThirdspaceö Zack Allen and Lyta in the elevator left me speechlessà It was kewl that he opened up to her, too bad she didnÆt remember what he said... It would have been nice if Zack Allen got the girl.

It's always after somebody passes away (or freaks out) that we know what good we had of him. As long as the person is alive and a friend, you kind of take it for granted. And I myself found my situation very similar to Lytas, with me helping as I was riding the rollercoster down into depression... well, I learned I don't have to help people, and when I do I always say what I expect from them. They tend to be puzzled, but if they really need my help, they will accept. I have my limits, and if I go over them helping somebody the least I expect ist that that somebody stops afterwards and says: Thank you...

Harrdy;
I know where youÆre coming fromà I also have gotten myself in to family squabbles before (with my in-laws). Making a long story short, I used to be always available to lend a hand, offer my help or assistance, but when I need a favor??? Everyone conveniently had plans or played dumb. So now I just leave them alone and conveniently have my own plans when they need something or play just as dumb as they did. It doesnÆt always work the way I expect it, but now I have peace of mind that they need me more than I need them.

Regarding the Hippy stuff... I found that the older I get the more I understand it. After I went social phobic for some time I found that if you are not "en vouge" (in one way or another) you are pretty much not interresting for any group of people to hang out with. Also a lot of my friends got children and when I meet them (seldom enough) it's always talking about how "their eyes followed me today" or "she murmured Papa" or something similar. You need something to socialize if you are very different from the people around you, and while I personally expect the world to be cruel and heartless (as that are my experiences with the world) I find it quite nice to hang out with people who could be considered Hippies, singing about "a better place". It is kind of hollidays, if you understand what I mean...

PeAcE

I am in total agreement with you on this one, and I liked your term ôsocial phobicö lolà

IÆm going to use it on the family when things get hairy with favors and junk. One thing I have noticed with family and close friends is that they talk about each otherà and one way to hint on an idea (suggestion, favor or constructive comment) is to tell someone in the group something and it will eventually get back to them without you having to confront them. Works nice too when you want to suggest someone throw you a surprise party.

[Jan]

... League of Non-Aligned Worlds... League of Nations? Interstellar Alliance... United Nations?
... JMS is obviously aware of history... Maybe I just think too much.[/SIZE]

Oh, you're right all right. There are many historical and mythological themes as well as the more (to us) obvious literary/SF themes.

Jan

[WorkerCaste]

That's a good point, really. Look at G'Kar. He did them a huge favor and he told them what he wanted in return and then he pushed it when they didn't want to give it. So a certain amount of the responsibility does have to rest with Lyta herself. Still, even with all the galactic concerns they all had, somebody could have and should have checked on her afterward or gone to bat for her over the quarters thing. I think it was an unconscious one, but still a prejudice against her because of her telepathic ability

Was it really prejudice against telepaths, or prejudice against outsiders. For all her help, she was more of an outsider than most of the others. She was aligned at first with Psi Corp, then with the Vorlons, and she really had no personal ties to the leaders of the alliance. No doubt, being a teep didn't help, but was it the first concern?

[Jan]

Was it really prejudice against telepaths, or prejudice against outsiders.

I thought of that because Susan did have difficulty accepting Marcus, too. The rest simply accepted him as a Ranger on Delenn's word, though. Maybe if Lyta hadn't just disappeared after each 'use', maybe she'd have been accepted, too. Hard to tell.

Jan

[Night Marshal]

Hmm to me there are two reasons that the Telepath Storyline doesn't work as well as it could. The first is length. In the great plain for Babylon 5 the first 3-5 eps of season 5 would have been used to wrap up the earth civil war. With season 4 ending with "Intersections in Real Time" Which is all honestly when I first saw "Intersections in Real Time" I thought it was the season finally since it aired in June when most seasons end, and they stopped airing new shows after it.
So the story stretched across12 Eps rather than 9 or 7. I know not all the shows in those 12 deal with the Telepaths but most to some degree or another.

The other thing that changed was that Claudia Christian left the show. This is important because the Telepath storyline was going to payoff all the telepath stuff in Ivanova storyline that had been brewing since season one. Where JMS has said that Ivanova would have been with Byron and Lyta would have just been follower to the movement.

To me the way things came down created a Better Lyta which to me is better for the show. But it would have been nice to see Ivanova in the fifth season. Those taken with the loss of Marcus, a lot of ones emotional ties to the show are cut. To me thatÆs why Season 5 isn't as loved as seasons 1-4.

As for Zack and Lyta, I assumed that Zack would be with Lyta when she died. JMS makes a comment during the commentary on Sleeping in Light that Zack lost his Leg doing something very Brave and Noble. To me that always suggested that it had something to do with Lyta.

[SpooRancher]

... Then Lyta goes nuts. "Oh, I am SO not appreciated!","The only time people talk to me is when they WANT something" ...
... Maybe she should have dropped her persecution complex and examined her own personality a bit more...
[/FONT][/SIZE]

She had one? Sure, she was hot, but the entire series, she was mostly submissive to Kosh, or mad at the universe.

[cornholio1980]

As for Zack and Lyta, I assumed that Zack would be with Lyta when she died. JMS makes a comment during the commentary on Sleeping in Light that Zack lost his Leg doing something very Brave and Noble. To me that always suggested that it had something to do with Lyta.

I totally agree with your analysis (actually, I still think that the not-so-good S5 is due rather to Claudia Christians departure than the ending of the earth civil war in S4 - it just would have been much more interesting and dramatic with her in command of B5, when she finally wouldn't have had a choice and would have called in the Psi Cops to get Byron (her new lover, I suppose).

And I would especially thank you for your thoughts on Zack and Lyta. It never occured to me before, but makes perfect sense, and as long as there's no new B5 material that contradicts your assumption, I'll stick with it, because I really really like that thought...

[Jan]

The only problem I have with Zack being noble pertaining to Lyta is that we already know that Lennier was there, too. I just think that's stretching credibility somewhat.

Jan

[Nacho]

Anybody remember that Star Trek OS episode where the hippies looking for Eden come aboard the Enterprise? One of the worst episodes of the series.

That's one of my favorite Star Trek episodes! LOL! I guess, because it so dated .. I mean you (I) can watch it and place its time of being written very easily .. the episode couldn't have been written at any other time in US social timeline.

Anyway, the guy who sang the song .. he was the same guy from the "Good 'Ol Boys" band that was going to beat the huey out of Jake and Ellwood, the Blue Brothers, with a baseball bat.