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  • #31
    Originally posted by JPH3
    The death of her only real ally so early in the conflict might have left her floundering for a time before she got back on her feet.
    OMG, you bring up an excellent point. She *had* alienated several of the council, hadn't she? Could it be that Dukhat rather forced her on them? That would certainly effect the dynamics of the Council, wouldn't it?

    Unfortunately, the script doesn't give any dates that I can use to try to pin down elapsed time.

    Jan
    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

    Comment


    • #32
      If Delenn was young and inexperienced as a Grey Council member, then that makes more sense, but I guess then Minbari the are not as interesting to me as other species. I like the idea of technological as well as spiritual advancement. But Neroon was just so cool. I'd like to see something in the B5 universe (but not necessarily part of the arc) from the Minbari warrior caste perspective.

      I thought Hawking's theories on this were quite interesting. He said that humans of the future should look different from us because of genetic engineering. Women will no longer have to give birth to their own children because they'll have artificial wombs to gestate the baby. People will have larger heads because head & brain size will no longer be restricted by the size of a woman's hips at birth and so can be genetically engineered to be much smarter than us. That intelligence will make them think and behave differently from us, so they will no be like the human characters we see in Star Trek, etc.

      I don't know if we'll achieve this within the next 100-200 years, but I can't help acceeding to a view of the human future as involving some kind of genetic engineering. Who would not want to have their children or their own genes "perfected" so that they can be the best they can be in life? Have the most opportunities possible for a happy life, etc? (Lose a limb, we'll make you a new one....) I'm sure at first many wouldn't, but later down the track it might just become "normal".

      Actually, I saw a Twilight Zone episode of a human culture that was like this but accidents still happened. They were kept locked up at home.
      Last edited by saori; 12-09-2005, 09:45 PM.
      "Not many fishes left in the sea. Not many fishes, just Londo and me."

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by saori
        Women will no longer have to give birth to their own children because they'll have artificial wombs to gestate the baby.
        That won't work. No one nows how, but somehow the brain of the child in the womb needs the connection with the mother. That is why a baby of a brain-dead mother has very slim chances of survival or a normal life.
        Life needs that connection for it to be a full life.
        Even after birth, if children are only given care... they die.
        There has been at least one such experiment. NONE OF THE CHILDREN SURVIVED THE FIRST YEAR.
        We are One... on levels we are not even aware of.
        If we change that... we might just as well build robots. WE won't have a future.
        Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
        John Sheridan

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        • #34
          There are possible improvements - the birth channel could go over the bone rather than through it. The womb in human females was designed for a 4 legged creature with the exit at the back. It has been patched to exit at the front, basically by putting a 90 degree bend in the tube.
          Andrew Swallow

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          • #35
            I was right with you until that last sentence, Andrew. The exit is still exactly where it was, it's the legs that are used/ bent differently from four-legged animals. I'd love to see a medical diagram of what you're talking about because, as Bester would say...anatomically impossible. Er...Tab B could not go into Slot A if there were a 90 degree bend. To say nothing of exiting children. But that's okay because they wouldn't be there if there was a 90 degree bend.

            DeMonk, do you have any links to that study you refer to? I've heard of studies where the children aren't cuddled, etc. but I don't think they went further than noting that the infants didn't thrive and gain weight properly.

            Jan
            "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

            Comment


            • #36
              Study

              Originally posted by Jan
              DeMonk, do you have any links to that study you refer to? I've heard of studies where the children aren't cuddled, etc. but I don't think they went further than noting that the infants didn't thrive and gain weight properly.Jan
              I don't remember the particulars, only the general story, because it really made my hair stand on end.
              It was in a manual on children's psychology I read over thirty years ago, reminding us that children need more than just food and general care.
              There may have been a link to this story:
              In 1211, Frederick II, Emperor of Germany, in an attempt to discover the natural "language of God," raised dozens of children in silence. God's preferred language never emerged; the children never spoke any language and all ultimately died in childhood (van Cleve, 1972).
              Last edited by DeMonk; 12-10-2005, 06:17 AM.
              Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
              John Sheridan

              Comment


              • #37
                Just to step back to Delenn for a moment ... I come from a planet where the pursuit of religion has accounted for significant bloodshed, death and near-genocide systematically over many centuries. Just imagine what the crusades would have been like if fought with Minbari level technology.

                With that in mind, I fail to see why we should hold the Minbari religious caste to a higher standard, either individually or collectively.

                And before anyone jumps on me ... I am speaking as someone who has been a Christian his entire adult life.
                The Optimist: The glass is half full
                The Pessimist: The glass is half empty
                The Engineer: The glass is twice as big as it needs to be

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Garibaldi's Hair
                  With that in mind, I fail to see why we should hold the Minbari religious caste to a higher standard, either individually or collectively.
                  And before anyone jumps on me ... I am speaking as someone who has been a Christian his entire adult life.
                  It's not that we should hold the Minbari religious caste to a higher standard as such.
                  But I feel that for Delenn it is what drives her. Her beliefs are not just words on a page, or words to be mouthed: it is expressed in actions.
                  • She goes in to care for the Markab, not knowing if she will make it or not (Confessions and lamentations)
                  • she offers her life for Sheridan's (Comes the inquisitor)
                  • Forgives the soldier who killed Dukhat (A late delivery from Avalon)
                  • She confesses to G'Kar and begs forgiveness (Ship of Tears)
                  • She can say of humans who caused her much suffering: "They are better than they think and nobler than they know."


                  These are all very difficult things to do. Things not done automatically.
                  Simply look at the way AIDS-sufferers are treated, sometimes even by their families.
                  Most people react out of fear, avoid difficult stuff.
                  And forgiveness... OK in theory ... but not the one who stole from me, not the one who raped me, not the one who killed my loved one drunk-driving... and so on.

                  For Delenn, it isn't theory, it's practice, whatever the cost.
                  And luckily for us, it is for a lot of people too.
                  JMS just shows us what we all could be, challenges us to aim higher.
                  That's why I like Delenn very much... She sets me a challenge I want to meet. One I do not want to fail to meet.

                  OK, she fails at the start of the Human-Minbari war.
                  So what? We all make mistakes, sometimes huge ones. The point is to pick yourself up and try again... and again.
                  For me, that just makes it all the more believable.
                  Last edited by DeMonk; 12-10-2005, 10:49 AM.
                  Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
                  John Sheridan

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Nicely said, DeMonk...very nicely said.

                    Jan
                    "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I didn't find Delenn or Lennier to be likable characters. There was something...sanctimonious about them, like the vision of the anointed that they propagated was the ONLY way.
                      Recently, there was a reckoning. It occurred on November 4, 2014 across the United States. Voters, recognizing the failures of the current leadership and fearing their unchecked abuses of power, elected another party as the new majority. This is a first step toward preventing more damage and undoing some of the damage already done. Hopefully, this is as much as will be required.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                        I didn't find Delenn or Lennier to be likable characters. There was something...sanctimonious about them, like the vision of the anointed that they propagated was the ONLY way.
                        I don't quite understand why you say that because they didn't do that.
                        They refused to take sides in "Believers". In matters of belief, they do not interfere.
                        So, they don't think that their way is the only way, they clearly respect the belief of others.
                        And sanctimonious? Watch Delenn confront the thug that promised: "I am the face you are going to wake up to in the morning." (Meditations on the Abyss)
                        Most un-sanctimonious!
                        Last edited by DeMonk; 12-10-2005, 11:56 AM.
                        Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
                        John Sheridan

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Z'ha'dumDweller
                          I didn't find Delenn or Lennier to be likable characters. There was something...sanctimonious about them, like the vision of the anointed that they propagated was the ONLY way.
                          "the anointed"? Who/what was that? I certainly don't remember them doing any proselytizing at all, though I remember them answering questions about their beliefs.

                          Jan
                          "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DeMonk
                            That won't work. No one nows how, but somehow the brain of the child in the womb needs the connection with the mother. That is why a baby of a brain-dead mother has very slim chances of survival or a normal life

                            Life needs that connection for it to be a full life.
                            Even after birth, if children are only given care... they die.
                            There has been at least one such experiment. NONE OF THE CHILDREN SURVIVED THE FIRST YEAR.
                            That may be the case now, but we can't know that it won't be possible in the future. At one time it seemed impossible to fly to the moon, but now we know that it is possible, because we have a greater understanding of the way the world is and can design technology to make it happen. To me, it seems reasonable that this will also happen gestation and birth.
                            "Not many fishes left in the sea. Not many fishes, just Londo and me."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It's not because be can, that we should!

                              Originally posted by saori
                              That may be the case now, but we can't know that it won't be possible in the future. At one time it seemed impossible to fly to the moon, but now we know that it is possible, because we have a greater understanding of the way the world is and can design technology to make it happen. To me, it seems reasonable that this will also happen gestation and birth.
                              In my opinion, this doesn't compare. Going to the moon is just a matter of technology. It isn't life. Nurturing and sustaining life is quite a different league. We may one day get there, but do we want to turn out babies out of machines? Would that be the best for the child? After all, that is what one wants for his child.
                              Besides, what reason would be good enough to do it? No stretchmarks?
                              It would be expensive. Now it grows for free. What health-insurance company would even consider paying for it? Everything comes down to economics these days.
                              Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth.
                              John Sheridan

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                My personal opinion is that it would be a mistake to cause or allow our species to become dependent on technology for our reproduction. All it would take is the futuristic equivalent of a 'power failure' to wipe out our ability to sustain ourselves. Bad move, evolutionarily speaking.

                                Jan
                                "As empathy spreads, civilization spreads. As empathy contracts, civilization contracts...as we're seeing now.

                                Comment

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